Hold up, you think the vegans are in the wrong? You can say that they’re annoying, but in terms of ethics and morals it’s not even an argument. It’s fine to not like tofu or whatever, but there is no amount of verbal gymnastics anyone can do to even begin to justify the modern meat and dairy industries. That shit is basically Animal Auschwitz times a billion.
I mainly put that in to see what reaction it would get.
For arguments sake, there is a militant strain of veganism (e.g. PETA) that is not always on the right side of history. But the damage done there is tiny compared to the other side of the scale.
The key word is “widescale”. The reason is that a malignant narcissist can get a small group of cultists to do anything. But in order to get a large group of cultists to do something, he needs a propaganda machine like fox News and they have a much older demographic
I completely agree with you. There might be some exceptions but in general what you say is true: when there’s a sea change, a zeigeist, young people are the first to sense it. You don’t get sweeping changes and protests at the senior care facility.
I think it’s also that the young have less to lose and more to gain. Most gen Xer are sitting around on their hands because they stand to lose much more than they gain. They have mortgage and car payments, children, and health insurance. If anything breaks, that can all come tumbling down.
Closest I can come with is nuclear disarmament. Not because I think they were on the wrong side of it, but I think it’s far less clear cut and there’s a credible argument that MAD has worked.
The Young Turk movement started with medical students.
There were quite a few pro-segregation protests when schools were desegregated.
There’s also a lot of cases where students with real grievances and positive intentions are coopted; most of the students protesting in the early 90s in eastern europe didn’t intend to do a color revolution and have their countries stripped for parts.
Thank you for bringing those up. However, unless I’m misunderstanding them, the only one of those where the protesters were in the wrong were the pro-segregation protests, correct? But weren’t those protests by-and-large made up of parents? (Perhaps along with some of their children doing what they were told?) Not exactly the “rebellious youth sticking it to the man” we generally mean by the words student protest.
Never knew until I immigrated to the US. And even then, its merely a brief mention on it and calls it “communism” (its not lol) and then the teachers proclaim its why “communism” is bad, USA constitution rule of law blah blah.
Look how good the constitution is, its being ripped apart right now.
Sure, the western world knows it happened, but its only a few shitposters on the internet cares about it. If you go on the street and ask the average westerner, they’d have no clue on what you’re talking about.
A few posts on reddit shitposting on June 4 is not exactly being “Vindicated”.
Never knew until I immigrated to the US. And even then, its merely a brief mention on it and calls it “communism” (its not lol) and then the teachers proclaim its why “communism” is bad, USA constitution rule of law blah blah.
It’s possible English isn’t your first language? No worries.
The word “vindicated” doesn’t mean “won in the end,” it means “they were right.” As in, justified in their demands, on the right side of history. Even of the protests I listed in my first comment, half of them didn’t actually win in the end (Vietnam, Occupy, Gaza, and arguably more).
In Mainland China, most people don’t know about Tiananmen, the older people who heard about it didn’t know much unless they were in Beijing, my parents (in Guangdong province at the time) just think its some kids “causing trouble”.
Most of the liberalizations goals failed, there is no free press. China is a State-Capitalist dictatorship.
Fact is, even in the west we don’t know much. The historical record has holes. We know of the protests. We know the military went in and nobody came out, but I’m not sure we really know what happened.
Yes, I understand that. Perhaps I was not empathetic enough, I am sorry to hear that about your family being deceived, along with the rest of mainland China.
The fact that the oppressive CCP won does not mean they were right. The world is not a Disney movie, the good guys don’t always win.
“Vindicated” just means that the good guys were good. Whether or not they won.
vindicate *verb*
- 1 a: to free from allegation or blame
- b (1): confirm, substantiate
- (2): to provide justification or defense for : justify
- c : to protect from attack or encroachment : defend
- 2 : avenge
- 3 : to maintain a right to
- 4 obsolete : toset free : deliver
wasn’t the Red Guard also a student movement? it didn’t get deleted, but it’s definitely not looked back upon fondly. tbf most of what I know of it comes from Three Body Problem though, so I could be wrong.
there’s also the Red Army Faction (Baader-Meinhoff gang) in Germany during the '70s which killed some people.
University students lead the Hungarian Revolution, and history doesn’t remember them fondly. They rebelled against the Soviet Union, which makes them Nazis. It’s a good thing our dear leader Stalin sent the tanks in to kill those students.
I had to look it up (dont know much about it), but in the Wikipedia entry it notes:
Time named the Hungarian Freedom Fighter its Man of the Year
And
In 2006, Hungarian Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsány referred to this famous Time cover as “the faces of free Hungary” in a speech marking the 50th anniversary of the uprising.
Which makes me think they were later vindicated. But maybe I’m missing something.
I’m not a troll, I’m a 100% serious and proud Marxist-Leninist. And I think there was nothing wrong with Stalin selling lumber and steel to Nazi Germany in the 1930s to make weapons with. Because I’m a real communist!
How DARE you!? I would never satirize Marxist-Leninist positions to raise awareness of problems with the Soviet Union and promote anarchism as a viable alternative. Because anarchists are all stinky!
The guy you’re responding to is a liberal doing a piss-poor satire of a ML.
The students protests was quickly co-opted by nazi collaborators entirely unaffiliated with the students, it’d be like if Jan 6 happened during the 2020 protests.
Yeah, that is why it was justified to shoot protesters. Because of what might have happened. The people are clearly misguided, we need to roll over them with tanks to prove we are the true proletariat. A lot of governments built monuments to Nazi collaborteurs. That doesn’t mean jack shit. Hitler was vegetarian and against animal abuse.
Yeah, that is why it was justified to shoot protesters
If that’s what you think I’m suggesting, you need to work on your reading comprehension.
There were protesters protesting for a change in government, there were organizers setting up alternative structures to compensate for the government’s failure, there were also fascists lynching government officials in the streets.
Are you suggesting it would have been better to just let the fascists seize power?
A lot of governments built monuments to Nazi collaborteurs. That doesn’t mean jack shit
Let me simplify this for you: Shooting communist protesters trying to reform the system is bad. Shooting fascists lynching people in the street is good and necessary.
Let’s see…
I am curious. Has there ever been a wide-scale student protest movement that WASN’T unequivocally vindicated by history?
National Socialist German Student League were literal Nazis
The Red Guards were a Student-led paramilitary group.
Japanese Students protested against the U.S.-Japan Security Treaty (Anpo)
Veganism?
Hold up, you think the vegans are in the wrong? You can say that they’re annoying, but in terms of ethics and morals it’s not even an argument. It’s fine to not like tofu or whatever, but there is no amount of verbal gymnastics anyone can do to even begin to justify the modern meat and dairy industries. That shit is basically Animal Auschwitz times a billion.
it’s possible that the modern industry is bad and vegans are still wrong
I mainly put that in to see what reaction it would get.
For arguments sake, there is a militant strain of veganism (e.g. PETA) that is not always on the right side of history. But the damage done there is tiny compared to the other side of the scale.
The key word is “widescale”. The reason is that a malignant narcissist can get a small group of cultists to do anything. But in order to get a large group of cultists to do something, he needs a propaganda machine like fox News and they have a much older demographic
I think the examples I gave were wide-scale for their time in history.
But I don’t really want to argue against OPs point. The intelligent, not yet indoctrinated, youth are usually on the right side of history.
I completely agree with you. There might be some exceptions but in general what you say is true: when there’s a sea change, a zeigeist, young people are the first to sense it. You don’t get sweeping changes and protests at the senior care facility.
I think it’s also that the young have less to lose and more to gain. Most gen Xer are sitting around on their hands because they stand to lose much more than they gain. They have mortgage and car payments, children, and health insurance. If anything breaks, that can all come tumbling down.
Closest I can come with is nuclear disarmament. Not because I think they were on the wrong side of it, but I think it’s far less clear cut and there’s a credible argument that MAD has worked.
We can’t really prove that MAD has worked without seeing what would have happened if we hadn’t done MAD.
I’d argue that without MAD, the cold war might not have happened, which could have avoided a massive number of conflicts.
The Young Turk movement started with medical students.
There were quite a few pro-segregation protests when schools were desegregated.
There’s also a lot of cases where students with real grievances and positive intentions are coopted; most of the students protesting in the early 90s in eastern europe didn’t intend to do a color revolution and have their countries stripped for parts.
Thank you for bringing those up. However, unless I’m misunderstanding them, the only one of those where the protesters were in the wrong were the pro-segregation protests, correct? But weren’t those protests by-and-large made up of parents? (Perhaps along with some of their children doing what they were told?) Not exactly the “rebellious youth sticking it to the man” we generally mean by the words student protest.
Yes and no, a number of universities had pro-segregation actions by students including protests
History is always more complicated and nuanced than any narrative would lead you to believe.
Tiananmen got deleted.
Never knew until I immigrated to the US. And even then, its merely a brief mention on it and calls it “communism” (its not lol) and then the teachers proclaim its why “communism” is bad, USA constitution rule of law blah blah.
Look how good the constitution is, its being ripped apart right now.
Sure, the western world knows it happened, but its only a few shitposters on the internet cares about it. If you go on the street and ask the average westerner, they’d have no clue on what you’re talking about.
A few posts on reddit shitposting on June 4 is not exactly being “Vindicated”.
The CCP won, they erased history.
The USA is now following the same path.
Autocrats of the world have won.
That’s when you bring up Kent State
They are winning.* It’s not over yet.
It’s possible English isn’t your first language? No worries.
The word “vindicated” doesn’t mean “won in the end,” it means “they were right.” As in, justified in their demands, on the right side of history. Even of the protests I listed in my first comment, half of them didn’t actually win in the end (Vietnam, Occupy, Gaza, and arguably more).
From Wikipedia:
I hope that you’d agree that the students were in the right, and that the oppressive CCP was in the wrong?
In Mainland China, most people don’t know about Tiananmen, the older people who heard about it didn’t know much unless they were in Beijing, my parents (in Guangdong province at the time) just think its some kids “causing trouble”.
Most of the liberalizations goals failed, there is no free press. China is a State-Capitalist dictatorship.
Fact is, even in the west we don’t know much. The historical record has holes. We know of the protests. We know the military went in and nobody came out, but I’m not sure we really know what happened.
At least… I don’t.
Well, maybe not “nobody”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellowbird
Yes, I understand that. Perhaps I was not empathetic enough, I am sorry to hear that about your family being deceived, along with the rest of mainland China.
The fact that the oppressive CCP won does not mean they were right. The world is not a Disney movie, the good guys don’t always win.
“Vindicated” just means that the good guys were good. Whether or not they won.
Dictionary Definition:
vindicate *verb* - 1 a: to free from allegation or blame - b (1): confirm, substantiate - (2): to provide justification or defense for : justify - c : to protect from attack or encroachment : defend - 2 : avenge - 3 : to maintain a right to - 4 obsolete : to set free : deliverhttps://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vindicate
So imagine a person defending against an assailant and inadvertently kills him.
The polices comes and accuses the person for murder, but its self defence.
So the man get convicted for murder.
Sure, his family may believe him. Some friend may believe him. A rebel group might also believe him.
But most people either don’t care or just believe what the police says.
The man spends life in prison. And his identity, records, papers are all shredded.
He may be in the right, but that’s not exactly being “vindicated”.
Vindicated is:
Yea maybe in the west, but in Mainland China, it doesn’t exist. Those who witnessed it thinks it was a riot.
Being “Vindicated” would be the CCP topples, and the new government shares the truth.
wasn’t the Red Guard also a student movement? it didn’t get deleted, but it’s definitely not looked back upon fondly. tbf most of what I know of it comes from Three Body Problem though, so I could be wrong.
there’s also the Red Army Faction (Baader-Meinhoff gang) in Germany during the '70s which killed some people.
If they won they wouldn’t still be trying to exert power. It’s not over until they stop.
University students lead the Hungarian Revolution, and history doesn’t remember them fondly. They rebelled against the Soviet Union, which makes them Nazis. It’s a good thing our dear leader Stalin sent the tanks in to kill those students.
I had to look it up (dont know much about it), but in the Wikipedia entry it notes:
And
Which makes me think they were later vindicated. But maybe I’m missing something.
I may be wrong and lack any historical knowledge on the subject, but I think author is sarcastically self-identifying as a tankie?
Oh its 100% possible, I have no idea.
I’m not a troll, I’m a 100% serious and proud Marxist-Leninist. And I think there was nothing wrong with Stalin selling lumber and steel to Nazi Germany in the 1930s to make weapons with. Because I’m a real communist!
Ok but you are a troll. You’re just not very good at making jokes because when called out you are doubling down on being stupid
How DARE you!? I would never satirize Marxist-Leninist positions to raise awareness of problems with the Soviet Union and promote anarchism as a viable alternative. Because anarchists are all stinky!
Every future member of the Allies did this.
What really separated the Soviets from other future Allies is it approaching Britain and France on the eve of the war with an offer of an anti-Nazi pact. imagine if those countries were not so rabidly anti-communist that they agreed to this.
The guy you’re responding to is a liberal doing a piss-poor satire of a ML.
The students protests was quickly co-opted by nazi collaborators entirely unaffiliated with the students, it’d be like if Jan 6 happened during the 2020 protests.
The government vindicating those protestors also built monuments to nazi collaborators.
It’s a complex issue, the students had genuine issues the government was failing to address, but if the soviets didn’t step in, things would have been far, far worse. For comparison, here’s what tended to happen in countries that failed to stop the counterrevolution around that time.
Yeah, that is why it was justified to shoot protesters. Because of what might have happened. The people are clearly misguided, we need to roll over them with tanks to prove we are the true proletariat. A lot of governments built monuments to Nazi collaborteurs. That doesn’t mean jack shit. Hitler was vegetarian and against animal abuse.
For the record Hitler wasn’t vegetarian, he just consumed less mammal flesh than contemporaries of his station.
He loved devilled pigeon hearts, for instance.
If that’s what you think I’m suggesting, you need to work on your reading comprehension.
There were protesters protesting for a change in government, there were organizers setting up alternative structures to compensate for the government’s failure, there were also fascists lynching government officials in the streets.
Are you suggesting it would have been better to just let the fascists seize power?
Oh lmao.
[…]
…
Let me simplify this for you: Shooting communist protesters trying to reform the system is bad. Shooting fascists lynching people in the street is good and necessary.
Why would you say something so based, and so true?