Americansā€™ belief in God, the devil and other spiritual entities has fallen to a new low, according to a Gallup poll released on Thursday. Seventy-four percent of Americans said they believe in Godā€¦

  • DarkGamer@kbin.socialOP
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    1 year ago

    Demons arenā€™t physical creatures, theyā€™re the ideas that prompt demonic behavior. They donā€™t die because theyā€™re born of ignorance, hatred, and fear.

    So, a metaphor for ideas that lead to ugly human behavior. Got it. XD

    I also believe that we are the information we contain. The problem with referring to sociopathic memes that lead to bad behaviors as literal demons is that there are significant numbers of people who believe that there are literally physical monstrous evil creatures from hell that tempt people into bad behaviors, (as evidenced in the link.) Using the same language they do is likely to reinforce their absurd beliefs even though you mean something different.

    • TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Iā€™m telling you thereā€™s no difference. Ideas are more alive than man. Look at Kenneth Copeland, Donald Trump, Ron DeSantis. Theyā€™re possessed with murderous ideas and they will destroy themselves and everyone around them before theyā€™d seek forgiveness and absolution.

      • DarkGamer@kbin.socialOP
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        1 year ago

        Iā€™m telling you thereā€™s no difference.

        I just spelled out the difference.

        Ideas are more alive than man.

        Have more longevity != more alive. See the definition of life here. Ideas/memes are not comprised of matter with biological processes.

        Look at Kenneth Copeland, Donald Trump, Ron DeSantis. Theyā€™re possessed with murderous ideas and they will destroy themselves and everyone around them before theyā€™d seek forgiveness and absolution.

        I agree that they all contain, spread, and celebrate many sociopathic ideas, but that does not life make. Memes are interesting in that they propagate in a similar way to biological organisms, like pathogens do, and can be studied in many similar ways, but that does not make them alive.

        I think most of the confusion here has to do with your use of the term, ā€œliterally,ā€ which you are literally using incorrectly.

        • TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Ok, I can see youā€™re limited by your materialist mindset. I donā€™t need to convince you. I will only tell you that understanding that there are angelic and demonic ideas that can possess and control our lives allows you to develop a tactic to counter or utilize their effects. Everything thatā€™s known about resisting and defeating demons is reflective of the necessary tactics one needs to resist and defeat demonic ideas. The Temptations of Christ are parables designed to teach the reader how to avoid the temptations of ignorance and malice. Everything known about invoking angels and Gods is reflective of what needs to be done to utilize those ideas in your life.

          • DarkGamer@kbin.socialOP
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            1 year ago

            Ok, I can see youā€™re limited by your materialist mindset. I donā€™t need to convince you. I will only tell you that understanding that there are angelic and demonic ideas that can possess and control our lives allows you to develop a tactic to counter or utilize their effects. Everything thatā€™s known about resisting and defeating demons is reflective of the necessary tactics one needs to resist and defeat demonic ideas. The Temptations of Christ are parables designed to teach the reader how to avoid the temptations of ignorance and malice. Everything known about invoking angels and Gods is reflective of what needs to be done to utilize those ideas in your life.

            Hoo boy, sorry to discover you have a propensity for magical thinking. Yes, I am proudly a materialist, and my beliefs are founded in physical evidence. Since beliefs that are not founded in evidence are seldom dispelled by it Iā€™m going to wish you a good day and stop wasting my time here.

            • TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              When man invented machines, he began believing God was a machine. Now that man is creating computers, we believe the universe is a simulation. Invariably when people say there is no God, theyā€™re completely unable to satisfactorily define God.

              • lowdownfool@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                when people say there is no God, theyā€™re completely unable to satisfactorily define God

                Because there isnā€™t one. So thereā€™s no way to define something that doesnā€™t exist.

                • TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  So what youā€™re saying is that something that doesnā€™t exist doesnā€™t exist. I agree with that. You havenā€™t said anything about God though.

                  • MelonTheMan@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    Iā€™m loving this thread, thanks to all the contributors.

                    People are meme/idea factories, creating new ones or refining existing ones. I think that itā€™s difficult (impossible?) To find this in any other instance of nature or even in man made AI.

                    Some ideas are bad/demonic in that they stifle the creation or refinement of new/existing ideas.

                    Some are ā€œangelicā€ in that they open new threads and avenues for thinking.

                    Whatā€™s a fictional God got to do with any of that?

                  • lowdownfool@kbin.social
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                    1 year ago

                    Hey, your imagination exists so, thus, the god you think exists does. Heā€™s stuck in your skull, thankfully.

          • btaf45@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            to teach the reader how to avoid the temptations of ignorance

            I think you failed that one. We passed it though.

            If Yahweh doesnā€™t speak to you he doesnā€™t listen to you either. The first thing would be just as easy as the 2nd thing.

              • btaf45@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                Iā€™m not religious.

                Then I donā€™t know why you use words like ā€œGodā€ when it is a completely meaningless word except as a character in ancient fictional stories.

      • FlickOfTheBean@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        You got a good enough idea: that humans embody the demonic ideas and essentially become the demon they act out while they act it out. I can agree with that but not in a literal sense, only figuratively/metaphorically.

        Your inflexibility makes your illustration very fragile though. Insisting you mean literally in the dictionary sense will break your idea over from ā€œok, sure maybeā€ into ā€œthis fellowā€™s mind may not be fully functioning as it normally wouldā€

        Iā€™m not here to call you names like conspiracy theorist, but youā€™re insisting in the same style as one, which is a major turn off.

        That said, ideas live longer than man, that is easily seen. The fascism youā€™re talking about is just that, weird fascist leavings of some of the worst parts of our society that have been left alone to simmer for too long now. What do you think about that? It being political rather than it being demons?

        • TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          All I can say is that before you judge my perspective, you should ask yourself if youā€™ve got the necessary theological and spiritual background to understand what youā€™re critiquing. Iā€™m not talking about pop-religion. Iā€™m referring to ancient concepts and frameworks for understanding reality that existed long before modern capitalist materialist concepts of the mind.

          ā€œMy point, once again, is not that those ancient people told literal stories and we are now smart enough to take them symbolically, but that they told them symbolically and we are now dumb enough to take them literally.ā€ ā€• John Dominic Crossan

          • FlickOfTheBean@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Well, not gonna lie, I wasnā€™t expecting to be insulted. If youā€™re just going to question my intelligence when I try to engage in good faith with what you posted, you would have done better to have just not responded.

            Thereā€™s a ā€œmystical stuff that only I can understand so I wonā€™t bother explainingā€ air that you have about your reasoning that is very representative of people who have nothing to back up what theyā€™re trying to say. Iā€™m calling you out as ignorant of what youā€™re saying now, partially because Iā€™m annoyed at you, partially because Iā€™m pretty certain you can not coherently put a narrative together that will make any sense.

            Thatā€™s a direct challenge to you to tell your story and theories. If you donā€™t want to, thatā€™s totally fine, you donā€™t have to, but donā€™t insult my intelligence when Iā€™m trying to give you so many benefits of the doubt that youā€™ve done nothing to earn.

            • TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Youā€™re the one who decided to take offense. If youā€™re so troubled by a quote then youā€™ll never survive on the internet. I didnā€™t say I wouldnā€™t explain, but I certainly donā€™t want to tiptoe around your sensitive feelings. If you get nothing from this exchange, itā€™s no skin off my back.

              • FlickOfTheBean@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Oh, I see your reading style now, that is certainly not idealā€¦

                I told you why I got annoyed with you: because you insulted my intelligence. Do you think the quote was the insulting part? It wasnā€™t, it was the ā€œcheck yourself before you wreck yourselfā€ you brought out in your first line.

                Letā€™s try this again:

                I think your ideas are wrong. I want you to show me how Iā€™m wrong. You are engaging in an argument instead of showing me your ideas. This is not what I want nor what I am interested in.

                I donā€™t care about this particular conversation, we can stop having it when/if you decide to start telling me why you believe these things.

                Like damn, dude, can you not see Iā€™m trying to get why you have the position you have?

                So youā€™re annoying to me. Big fucking deal. Does it not mean anything that Iā€™m still trying to engage with your ideas despite you constantly twisting away to say more inexplicably cryptic stuff? Stop engaging with this pointless internet argument and tell me something interesting, please!

                I swear, the worst I have to offer is a ā€œthatā€™s interestingā€ and then Iā€™ll be on my way.

                • TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  You donā€™t have be embarrassed by your ignorance, but if you are then itā€™s your own doing. Donā€™t expect me to accept your ignorance as fact, or give it the same respect I would give a person who had done the research. Are we done? Cuz if weā€™re just gonna talk about how youā€™re big mad about your deficiencies Iā€™ve lost interest.

                  • FlickOfTheBean@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    Not quite yet, because youā€™ve still failed to give yourself a position.

                    Youā€™re focusing too much on this argument.

                    Youā€™ve yet to have a position which would kick off the conversation I tried and am still trying to have with you.

                    You have done pretty much nothing this argument but glom on to key words and completely ignore every request Iā€™ve sent you to tell me anything worth anything, which does not bode well for your reading comprehension abilities, which is probably why youā€™re bored right now.

                    If youā€™re so bored, then change this into a conversation about what you believe. And not about me, I donā€™t give a shit about me, which you seem to be overly focused on, Iā€™m talking about demons.

                    So Iā€™ll ask you directly: what is your full position on demons? How do they work, how do they operate, whatā€™s their motivation? Are they purely human generated? Are you unable to say because people will come after you? Is that why you keep twisting away and ignoring what Iā€™m requesting from you?