Brasilia, Aug 2 (EFE).- The war in Ukraine proves that the world needs a new system of global governance, Brazilian president Luiz InĆ”cio Lula da Silva said Wednesday. In his first press conference with foreign journalists since he took office on January 1, Lula said the United Nations had failed to assume its āresponsibilityā because ā¦
I donāt think hereās anything for me to reply. I think itās pretty obvious you take everything Russia says at face value and without any question of whether itās actually true or not. With the guarantees you even go as far as to say it doesnāt even matter whether the concerns are true or not as long as Russians believe it, which means thereās nothing even to address because Russians will believe what they want to believe.
And when Russian statements get questioned you drown out the criticism with an information dump that may or may not be related to the actual criticism. It would take me days to go through everything you wrote to explain why something is wrong or why itās not even relevant to the discussion. Itās a common disinformation tactic and it would be a waste of my time to respond to that because youāre going to reply with another information dump.
No, but I acknowledge that Russia has demands, and has had those demands ever since before the war. Also most of the sources I provided were from US-based outlets so claiming that it comes straight from Russia is misleading.
Hmmmm, no? Russians will believe what theyāre shown with their own critical view, much like you and me. By having NATO at the very least address those grievances instead of pretending they donāt exist (or as they actually did, escalating), it wouldnāt surprise anybody that theyād get more galvanised. Itās strangely common here to see people who just completely disregard the support for this war from the Russian people. Theyāre human too, yāknow.
And when questions are questioned I answer then. Itās not my fault you were so off the mark that I needed to contextualise the whole thing.
Take your time, no rush. You might learn a thing or two, and then I might learn a thing your two from your reply.
Itās a common disinformation tactic to provide a fuckton of sourced information that contextualises all that is being said and provides argumentation and conclusion. Come on now, if you donāt like forum discussions why did you even come here to discuss something you donāt really care enough about?
This one is shorter, how about that?
Everyone has demands. I could demand right now that you change your opinion. Does that mean my demand should be taken seriously? No. I have no problem acknowledging Russia has demands. I have a problem taking those demands seriously because every single demand is baseless or self-inflicted.
Except their critical view is being twisted by state propaganda. Any Russian inside Russia has to fully reject all major information channels from within Russia to even have a chance for an objective critical view.
Two questions. What grievances? The ones you mentioned or the ones Putin mentioned? Because you brought up slightly difference grievances than Putin. And the second question is how is NATO supposed to address them? For instance the one about Nazis in Ukraine has nothing to do with NATO. The one about nukes isnāt actually related to NATO either, itās related to the countries that signed the Budapest memorandum.
Where precisely did NATO itself escalate the issue. Last I checked NATO itself hasnāt done anything except reject the unrealistic proposal Russia presented. Itās entirely unrealistic to demand NATO stop itās open door policy in regards to Ukraine, demand NATO forces out of NATO countries and demand that NATO countries themselves refuse to support Ukraine.
Thatās an interesting thing to say, because most vocal Russians on Reddit actually claimed to be against the war and blamed āthe westā for demonizing Russian people for supporting the war. I agree that theyāre human too but clearly the support is not as clear as you make it seem to be.
The rest of the comment is not relevant to the discussion.
Yes, it means that Iām aware of your demand and that I choose not to comply because you havenāt provided enough justifications. On the other hand Iām de-escalating the situation by showing how the flaws in your reasoning. NATO couldāve done the same thing, but instead they chose to pretend the coup was a revolution, and all is right in the world. And you are now choosing to not read all the information which I provided, then throwing your arms to the sky and proclaiming that āthereās no such information.ā
So is ours. Welcome to the internet where bourgeois newspapers do their darnedest to control the narratives. However you donāt need to āfully rejectā the outlets much as I havenāt āfully rejectedā mnsbc or other USA news there, just read them critically. They still have the internet and a lot of them speak English, so if they want they can check multiple sources, which is how you actually develop critical views, not by just discarding the ones you donāt trust 100% percent. You may notice I didnāt outright discard any of your (rare) sources.
You might want to elaborate on that. Since Iām not the President of Russia, I think you should go with the Putin ones of blocking Ukraine from NATO, ending the Donbass war and removing the Nazis from government. Itās all in the speech, if you read it.
Read above, but Iām also not the French ambassador so they could think of clever compromises too, so long as they actually acknowledged the Russian moral concerns. They didnāt even go that far. (though I could be wrong there, fetch me a source disproving this, will ya).
Those weapons wouldāt be developed locally, theyād come from the USA as has been happening in other EU countries. A simple official statement āno, we wonāt give them nukesā wouldāve been cool I think. Obviously they didnāt do it because, again, this war has been a long time coming and NATO wanted it. Ukraine is the one paying the price.
Read the sources, youāll see that the Maidan coup was backed by NATO, that they have been supplying weapons for the war on Donbass, and that right now they are providing material support for Ukraine, which is not (and probably will never be) a NATO country. There are leaked calls in which US diplomats basically choose who should become prime minister, the previous spitballing of nukes and now even the destruction of Nordstream and the providing of cluster munitions. Since youāre not bothering to check the sources Iāll only provide the ones you ask for.
Not really, Ukraine is not in NATO so they could stop all of those things there. In fact itās possible they stop doing it in a while after this failed counter-offensive of their own volition. It is at least less unrealistic than the Ukrainian government demand that the Russian forces need to pack it up and go home, abandoning all of their costly victories in the war, in order for there to be any peace talks. Always remember that this support started with the Donbass war which has killed thousands and displaced millions, and even Zelenskyy himself has said it was a huge mistake.
Oh wow, Russians on reddit, a website that literally banned Genzedong for being critically supportive of the SMO. That certainly doesnāt include any biases in your anecdotal experience that need to be accounted for. Apparently the support public opinion on Putin is up since the beginning of the war, but I donāt really like statista as a source and search engines are flooded with āAmericans think Russia badā NYT articles so Iām not bothering with that. Feel free to find better sources that give more foundation to your experience, but the proxy speculation I was using for the support is that the Russian military has spent the past 18 months at war while their country receives an absurd amount of sanctions. This is hard to maintain without public support, but I could be wrong.
The rest of my comment is very relevant to the discussion because apparently you seem to think that providing sources and discussing on an internet forum is ādisinformation,ā which I think is why you donāt provide any yourself. Iām sorry to tell you, but if you come here saying nonsense and people provide counterarguments with evidence backing them, youāre just wasting everybodyās time with your speculations and hearsay if you donāt respond on their level. You should probably read before you write.
Well? You were so ready to prove me wrong and Iām still waiting. Iāve given you days to find the sources for your claims, but I guess itās hard to find sources for made up shit. Maybe you should follow your own advice and read before you write, otherwise you just end up self-owning yourself.
Nah, I actually wrote a thing out but lemmy 0.18.3 was buggy as hell and it didnāt post, and it ruined my mood for this. Since youāve shown yourself to be so lazy that you couldnāt just google the statistics of English speakers in Russia (hint, wikipedia has some easily digestible data), itās pretty clear youāre just wasting my time and moving the goalposts, misrepresenting your own sources and generally acting in bad faith, and the comment thread is so hidden that engaging with your bad faith wonāt even help to reach even actually curious lurkers. No point in it for me really, prove yourself right all you want in an endless thread talking to yourself. Maybe this talking to this lad instead, you both think alike.
As evidence of your nonsense:
What is the official name for that coup, Coup of Dignity?
Actually read those and point me where the actual de-escalation is in there. Literally dismiss Russiaās claims offhandedly while claiming āchanges in transparencyā or other political non-statements.
Your honour, I didnāt kill him, it was my brain who told the finger to pull the trigger.
Military defence alliance canāt control its members, logically.
lmao, find me an official Russian source denying their support for the independence of the eastern republics.
Yes. Find me a single case in modern history where a peace talk only started (read: not a surrender) only after the winning party abandoned all their military gains. You can probably think of one or two, but thatās a good exercise nevertheless.
Had to check, you donāt even read what your own sources say.
Honestly, go waste somebody elseās time with your
nonsense. If you really care that much that none of Russiaās demands go answered, go join the foreign legion or something, Iāve head they even help with student loans. Just dont pester some rando correcting your āwhat guaranteesā vagueposting.
Lol, you became a caricature of the same things you criticize others for and then some. Absolutely unhinged reply.
Care to elaborate?
You tell others to āread before you writeā but then yourself donāt do it. Like you said, itās quick google to see that āa lotā of Russians donāt speak English. But instead of doing a quick google to see if youāre full of shit you just write it out anyway. No regards to you own āread before you writeā mantra. In fact every place where I specifically asked for proof is a place where youāre either completely wrong or partially wrong.
Then thereās the whole āweāre here to have a discussion, why are you even here to discuss something if you donāt care about it?ā as if youāre open to discussion. Except when I actually push back you turn around and go āNo point in discussing, nobody else will see itā which is entirely contradictory to US having ādiscussionā.
Then thereās the deliberately vague part which is how the entire thread started. Your first comment literally āmaybe this or maybe that and maybe something else wouldāve happenedā. Could it be any more vague? I even pressed you on specifically mentioning what you mean by guarantees and your response was somehow even more vague, telling me to read Putins speech and figure them out on my own. You did something similar the second time when I asked proof of a lot of Russians speaking English and you told me to go find the data myself. Any and all attempts for any specificity out of you is met with vagueness or deflection. Which makes it pretty ironic for you to call people questioning your vagueness as vagueposting.
And then you pull out every ādebateā lord trick in the book. You say Iām wasting your time, Iām moving goalposts, Iām in bad faith. You call me names, like ādebate pervertā. And then you pull a series of āevidence of nonsenseā where youāre just raging.
I honestly had a good laugh over your entire comment because it epitomizes your hypocrisy.
In that case all should be good considering the US and NATO did respond, NATO also publicly if I may add.
That applies to both Ukraine joining NATO and previous post-soviet countries joining NATO.
Unless you want to provide with a clear source where NATO calls it a revolution Iām going to claim they didnāt, because I couldnāt find where they said that.
I guess then it should be extremely easy to point where NATO calls it a revolution.
I think youāre seriously underestimating how strong Russian propaganda machine is. Iām sure youāre seen Russia claim that the west betrayed them with the NATO advancement. Itās something that maybe youāve seen some poor quality western sources also claim, just one example to show that this claim has also spread to the west. That is not true at all. In fact itās deliberate Russian propaganda
Anyway
Considering the rest of this statement hinges on their ability to speak English my question is, source on a lot of them speaking English?
Well youāre the one going around āguarantees thisā and āguarantees thatā but at no point do you explicitly state what you mean by guarantees. You listed a few but those were presented more like your personal opinion on what they might be, rather than what you claim they are. But I guess youāre referring to the speech so I guess that at least gives some clearer context on what you meant.
I did, this is false. Your sources stated that the US was backing the coup, not NATO.
Source on the spitballing?
The fuck does this even mean? Ukraine is not in the NATO so NATO shouldnāt allow Ukraine in at all and also move all of its forces out of the Baltic states and Poland? Or did you mean only the last part of those unreasonable claims, that NATO countries shouldnāt support Ukraine? The latter NATO literally cannot fulfill because that is a decision of individual countries.
How is that unrealistic? Itās unrealistic to expect that your borders be respected before there can be peace talks? Especially if the entire war is either at a stalemate or slightly in your favor? Iād understand if thereās a relatively clear prediction that Ukraine will lose, but thatās currently not the case.
You mean with the Russian backed coup in Donetsk and Luhansk? Russia obviously denies that but both region are russian-backed. That war is just as much on Russia as it is on Ukraine. A
Funny.
I actually donāt have an issue with that, I was just pointing out how there are Russians who would be happy to claim opposite. Iām aware that Russians support the war and in my opinion their refusal to oppose the war makes them also responsible for this war. This isnāt a case where they can say itās their government and they couldnāt do anything, they donāt want to do anything about it either.