I don’t really buy Ralph’s suggestion that it behooves Hamas to undercount the deaths. Rather, Palestinian authorities, including Hamas, probably feel like they have to be careful about their counts because credibility matters to their cause. The Israeli occupiers and their supporters will run with any perceived wolf crying.
It does a disservice to the health ministry to invariably pin it as “Hamas-run” like the media usually does. It’s a professional, bureaucratic apparatus. Not really any more Hamas-run than the US Bureau of Land Management is Democrat-run. Which is to say, technically accurate but usually stated with a purposeful insinuation.
All this is to say that you’re right, they’re concerned with accuracy and credibility. But credit where credit is due, it’s because of the health ministry itself, not Hamas.
In what possible world is Hamas this careful entity that’s concerned about their credibility and standing on the world stage
Along with Likud, Hamas is one of the primary entities ensuring the continuation of the decades-long slow genocide of the Palestinians. That’s why Likud has historically given them so much aid and support. They’re two peas in their own little murder-pact pod, and millions are starving or dead now as a result.
(Edit: My criticism of Hamas doesn’t mean I’m criticizing the effort the Gaza Health Ministry puts into getting good and accurate numbers. This article touches on at least a little bit of where the undercount in their figures might come from, despite how hard they’re trying to report accurate numbers. Among other things, it says that 30,000 is only the estimate of people directly killed by the IDF, not anyone who dies of starvation, disease, or injury. Maybe that’s part of the difference, or maybe Nader is simply throwing ballparked numbers around without nearly as much rigor as they put into it.)
In what possible world is Hamas this careful entity that’s concerned about their credibility and standing on the world stage
In this world.
It’s well-documented by NGOs and even the UN and WHO that the Gaza Health Ministry’s counts tend to be accurate, precisely because it behooves Hamas to be able to back up their accusations of Israeli killings with solid data. The data they release includes names, ID card numbers, sex, and age.
Hamas is one of the primary entities ensuring the continuation of the decades-long slow genocide of the Palestinians
“Nat Turner is one of the primary entities ensuring the continuation of the decades-long slow genocide of the slaves.”
Obviously this is not a perfect comparison, but I’d love to hear what exactly you think Hamas could do to end the Israeli murdering of Palestinians? Israel kidnaps, tortures, rapes, and murders Palestinians in the West Bank, and Hamas has no authority there.
That’s why Likud has historically given them so much aid and support.
Hamas lied about 500 dying in al Ahli hospital blast and blaming the IDF. They didn’t even try to offer evidence.
even granting this, this seems like the obvious exception to the rule. as the commenter you’re replying to noted, the UN and WHO have generally supported (with a handful of discrepancies that are unsurprising given the circumstances) the Gaza Health Ministry’s death tolls. Israel’s counts have also not historically diverged strongly from the ones the Gaza Health Ministry gives. take the 2014 war where the Gaza Health Ministry said 2,310 killed, the UN HRC said 2,251 killed, and Israel said 2,125 killed. that’s only a 10% difference which, if we’re being honest, is not really much of one in the context of an armed conflict.
mostly, where the Ministry and Israel meaningfully differ is in who they consider civilians and on what bases–the Ministry claimed about 70% civilians killed in 2014, but Israel claimed 36%. and that’s a much harder question to parse out than whether or not the Gaza Health Ministry is lying about casualty numbers–which by all accounts we have it does not seem to be.
Hamas and Gaza Health Ministry are two very different entities.
The analogy between the slavery era US government and Likud breaks down for a few different reasons. If the Jackson administration had been funding Nat Turner’s organization so that they could escalate a conflict with him and keep him around to provide justification for an all-out war against the slaves in US territories in the Caribbean, at the expense of tankerloads of blood spilling onto the ground from both slaveowners and slaves, then sure, it’d be closer to accurate.
Netanyahu has given Hamas support in order to prevent the Palestinian Authority from gaining power in Gaza in order to prevent a 2-state solution
Isn’t that literally exactly what I said in my original message? Yes, I agree with this and the rest.
(Edit: I got curious about this, because Gaza Health Ministry actually is a decent and reliable organization and the point that their figures are generally pretty serious estimates is a valid one. One official said that the 30,000 figure only counts people directly killed by the IDF, and that it’s highly dependent on the hospital system which is effectively destroyed at this point. So regardless of whether the scale of Nader’s estimate is accurate or not, there are definitely thousands of people whose deaths aren’t included in the 30,000.)
(Edit 2: I should have responded to your point asserting that Hamas would accept a 2-state solution. Hamas’s position in the recent past is “Hamas would in that case still not recognise the statehood of Israel and not relinquish their goal of liberating all of Palestine from ‘the Zionist project’.[70][343] Around 2018, a Hamas finance minister has suggested that a ‘long-term ceasefire as understood by Hamas [hudna] and a two-state settlement are the same’.[74] Meanwhile, reports are that in the early 2020s, Hamas leaders occasionally still called for the annihilation of the state of Israel.[344]”
“In January 2024, Khaled Mashal, top Hamas leader until 2017 and now heading the Hamas diaspora office – in contradiction with Haniyeh’s proclamation from November 2023 – repeated his stance from 1 May 2017: a (preliminary) Palestinian state ‘on the 1967 borders’, that is ‘21 per cent of Palestine’, would be accepted by Hamas but not as the permanent ‘two-state solution’ which ‘The West’ since a long time envisions and promotes; ‘our Palestinian project’ remains ‘our right in Palestine from the sea to the river’, which Hamas will not give up, therefore Hamas will not recognise the legitimacy of ‘the usurping entity [Israel]’.[346]”)
Hamas and Gaza Health Ministry are two very different entities.
The numbers of dead reported, which is what this whole article and thread is about, is reported by the Gaza Health Ministry. Casting doubt on the credibility of Hamas’ death counts is casting doubt on the credibility of the GHM, because that’s where their numbers come from.
The analogy between the slavery era US government and Likud breaks down for a few different reasons.
The analogy was of 2 subjugated peoples who resisted their subjugators with violence, and are then condemned for it.
Isn’t that literally exactly what I said in my original message?
No, you said that Likud supports Hamas because (in your claim) Hamas is opposed to peace. In reality, Israel doesn’t care about the goals of the Gaza government, they care about whether international organizations will work with them. Hamas is not opposed to peace, they are opposed to setting up an open-air prison with slow starvation, no self-determination, apartheid status for its people, and frequent bombings… and calling it peace. They also know that Israel will never actually create a true state for the Palestinians willingly. If that’s ever going to happen, it’s going to have to be forced by one group or another (or more likely, sadly, it just won’t ever happen).
If you ambush a music festival and kill hundreds of unarmed people, you’re a monster, and you’re going to hell.
People do terrible things when pushed to the brink. Doesn’t excuse it, but it is the only outcome of pushing people there. Israel should have some introspection as to why they seem to create so many monsters.
Casting doubt on the credibility of Hamas’ death counts is casting doubt on the credibility of the GHM, because that’s where their numbers come from.
I made an edit. Generally speaking, I agree with this statement. It doesn’t mean I agree with Hamas. That’s the main point I was making in my original comment.
You do realize that I’m the one that posted this not exactly pro-Israel article, right? I.e. I’m on your side on a certain amount of this, at least?
The analogy was of 2 subjugated peoples who resisted their subjugators with violence, and are then condemned for it.
I don’t condemn Hamas for resisting their subjugators with violence. I condemn them for doing it in a corrupt, stupid, and counterproductive way, to the point that Likud wants to support them because them being around is so good for accomplishing Likud’s mission.
No, you said that Likud supports Hamas because (in your claim) Hamas is opposed to peace.
I made an edit with some backing for my statement that Hamas doesn’t support peace, through either violent or nonviolent means.
Peace, to me, means peace. Means 80-90% of people just want to do their farms and raise their children and be left alone. So your aim is to let them do that. If you need to fight to preserve that, because your back’s to the wall and you have enemies coming and killing you, taking your homes, then fine. I get that, it makes perfect sense to me. It’s necessary, it’s standing up for your country. Do your killing and fight your war with it fixed firmly in your mind when on some distant day your families and your community might be able to live and just do their business and all the guns and bombs can be buried. That’s the goal.
If you’re of the opinion that any peaceful business being done by anybody, any progress whether fake or real, all of that has to go on hold, for your allies and enemies alike, so that you inflame the killing and bring a real war, with the aim of finally reaching this distant day when all your enemies are dead, women and little children, the guilty and the innocent, then I don’t support you.
I get the idea of needing to resist the open-air prison that Israel calls “peace,” and the unconscionable crime that the West in general is committing by supporting Israel in its apartheid and its slaughter. I don’t know what the answer is to that. I wish I did, I really do… All I’m saying is, killing a bunch of people at a music festival isn’t it. I mean, how did it work out? Are things peaceful now?
You do realize that I’m the one that posted this not exactly pro-Israel article, right? I.e. I’m on your side on a certain amount of this, at least?
I apologize; I am very sensitive on this topic, and I was being too aggressive.
If you’re of the opinion that any peaceful business being done by anybody, any progress whether fake or real, all of that has to go on hold, for your allies and enemies alike, so that you inflame the killing and bring a real war, with the aim of finally reaching this distant day when all your enemies are dead, women and little children, the guilty and the innocent, then I don’t support you.
Agreed. Violence becomes self-perpetuating at a certain point because a desire for peace takes a back seat to revenge, or peace only on one side’s strict terms. I’m not sure I’m ready to declare that dynamic present in Gaza, though; Hamas has never existed outside of Israel’s violence, so it’s impossible to say whether they would eschew true peace in favor of revenge or not, seeing as they’ve never been given the option.
I apologize; I am very sensitive on this topic, and I was being too aggressive.
All good 👍🏻
Hamas has never existed outside of Israel’s violence, so it’s impossible to say whether they would eschew true peace in favor of revenge or not, seeing as they’ve never been given the option.
Yeah. That occurred to me as I was quoting my stuff… like at this point, what the fuck else are they going to say. And even then they’re hedging it a little bit, saying that they’d accept a cease-fire and the 1967 borders as long as it’s “not permanent” (not that Israel would agree to that anyway.)
So yeah maybe it’s unfair to say they wouldn’t want peace if there was realistic peace in front of them.
If you ambush a music festival and kill hundreds of unarmed people, you’re a monster, and you’re going to hell. I’m comfortable saying that about Hamas, the IDF, American GIs during World War 2, Black Lives Matter supporters, Trump supporters. Anyone. It’s not a “sided” thing.
And of course the IDF and the current Israeli government are also currently committing unspeakable crimes in Gaza every day, starving children and the old, and bombing houses with little babies inside.
Anyone who could possibly disagree with either one of those statements, I’m not sure what I could say to you.
Well, it is a sided thing. One side is a colonial occupier employing genocidal means to maintain their dominance and on the other side are their victims, a practically stateless, displaced, and disenfranchised people with modest and fair demands to return home and have equal rights. It is the righteous, existential imperative of the latter to resist the former by any means necessary, including deadly terrorism. The case for Palestinian armed resistance and Operation Al-Aqsa Flood in particular is especially justified given Israel’s spectacular response to The Great March of Return in 2018 and 2019. The Israeli’s made it abundantly clear that non-violent resistance would only be answered with brutal punishment. Given what Palestinians are up against, I don’t think it’s really fair to expect any better from their armed resistance.
Nothing justifies the rape, murder, abductions of October 7 and I am disgusted that you are using the propaganda name Hamas chose for this string of war crimes. You do not fight violent oppression by being a violent oppressor yourself, which is what Hamas is.
Rapes may have occurred on that day as they do every other day of the year everywhere, and there has never been a fighting force that was completely innocent of it, but rape was not a part of the plan for Operation Al-Aqsa Flood. That allegation was a hoax designed to stoke the genocide against Palestinians, so it’s important to set that record straight.
That said, I don’t know how you can construe any of the Palestinian resistance as oppressors, except possibly to the extent that the PA has cooperated with the Israelis, but I digress. Violent, armed resistance to a colonial occupier is not oppression. It’s part of the struggle for liberation. No people ever got their freedom by asking nicely. At the very least they were able to leverage a credible threat of violence.
I don’t really buy Ralph’s suggestion that it behooves Hamas to undercount the deaths. Rather, Palestinian authorities, including Hamas, probably feel like they have to be careful about their counts because credibility matters to their cause. The Israeli occupiers and their supporters will run with any perceived wolf crying.
It does a disservice to the health ministry to invariably pin it as “Hamas-run” like the media usually does. It’s a professional, bureaucratic apparatus. Not really any more Hamas-run than the US Bureau of Land Management is Democrat-run. Which is to say, technically accurate but usually stated with a purposeful insinuation.
All this is to say that you’re right, they’re concerned with accuracy and credibility. But credit where credit is due, it’s because of the health ministry itself, not Hamas.
In what possible world is Hamas this careful entity that’s concerned about their credibility and standing on the world stage
Along with Likud, Hamas is one of the primary entities ensuring the continuation of the decades-long slow genocide of the Palestinians. That’s why Likud has historically given them so much aid and support. They’re two peas in their own little murder-pact pod, and millions are starving or dead now as a result.
(Edit: My criticism of Hamas doesn’t mean I’m criticizing the effort the Gaza Health Ministry puts into getting good and accurate numbers. This article touches on at least a little bit of where the undercount in their figures might come from, despite how hard they’re trying to report accurate numbers. Among other things, it says that 30,000 is only the estimate of people directly killed by the IDF, not anyone who dies of starvation, disease, or injury. Maybe that’s part of the difference, or maybe Nader is simply throwing ballparked numbers around without nearly as much rigor as they put into it.)
In this world.
It’s well-documented by NGOs and even the UN and WHO that the Gaza Health Ministry’s counts tend to be accurate, precisely because it behooves Hamas to be able to back up their accusations of Israeli killings with solid data. The data they release includes names, ID card numbers, sex, and age.
“Nat Turner is one of the primary entities ensuring the continuation of the decades-long slow genocide of the slaves.”
Obviously this is not a perfect comparison, but I’d love to hear what exactly you think Hamas could do to end the Israeli murdering of Palestinians? Israel kidnaps, tortures, rapes, and murders Palestinians in the West Bank, and Hamas has no authority there.
No, Netanyahu has given Hamas support in order to prevent the Palestinian Authority from gaining power in Gaza in order to prevent a 2-state solution, not because Hamas would reject that, but because the international partners who Israel would claim to use to facilitate that process (like the US) refuse to work with Hamas. If Israel could get the US to label the PA a terrorist group, they’d be perfectly happy to let the PA run Gaza.
Hamas lied about 500 dying in al Ahli hospital blast and blaming the IDF. They didn’t even try to offer evidence.
There was public evidence to the contrary though.
Yet all mainstream media reported it for about a week before correcting themselves.
even granting this, this seems like the obvious exception to the rule. as the commenter you’re replying to noted, the UN and WHO have generally supported (with a handful of discrepancies that are unsurprising given the circumstances) the Gaza Health Ministry’s death tolls. Israel’s counts have also not historically diverged strongly from the ones the Gaza Health Ministry gives. take the 2014 war where the Gaza Health Ministry said 2,310 killed, the UN HRC said 2,251 killed, and Israel said 2,125 killed. that’s only a 10% difference which, if we’re being honest, is not really much of one in the context of an armed conflict.
mostly, where the Ministry and Israel meaningfully differ is in who they consider civilians and on what bases–the Ministry claimed about 70% civilians killed in 2014, but Israel claimed 36%. and that’s a much harder question to parse out than whether or not the Gaza Health Ministry is lying about casualty numbers–which by all accounts we have it does not seem to be.
The numbers don’t matter to me now. It is obviously a disaster. The excuse of wanting to prevent another Oct 7 is disingenuous.
1 They can never eliminate Hamas
2 Oct 7 shouldn’t have happened in the first place if the government was competent and it is easy to stop in future by kicking Bibi out.
Kicking Bibi out is the only tricky part but still easier than eliminating Hamas.
Hamas and Gaza Health Ministry are two very different entities.
The analogy between the slavery era US government and Likud breaks down for a few different reasons. If the Jackson administration had been funding Nat Turner’s organization so that they could escalate a conflict with him and keep him around to provide justification for an all-out war against the slaves in US territories in the Caribbean, at the expense of tankerloads of blood spilling onto the ground from both slaveowners and slaves, then sure, it’d be closer to accurate.
Isn’t that literally exactly what I said in my original message? Yes, I agree with this and the rest.
(Edit: I got curious about this, because Gaza Health Ministry actually is a decent and reliable organization and the point that their figures are generally pretty serious estimates is a valid one. One official said that the 30,000 figure only counts people directly killed by the IDF, and that it’s highly dependent on the hospital system which is effectively destroyed at this point. So regardless of whether the scale of Nader’s estimate is accurate or not, there are definitely thousands of people whose deaths aren’t included in the 30,000.)
(Edit 2: I should have responded to your point asserting that Hamas would accept a 2-state solution. Hamas’s position in the recent past is “Hamas would in that case still not recognise the statehood of Israel and not relinquish their goal of liberating all of Palestine from ‘the Zionist project’.[70][343] Around 2018, a Hamas finance minister has suggested that a ‘long-term ceasefire as understood by Hamas [hudna] and a two-state settlement are the same’.[74] Meanwhile, reports are that in the early 2020s, Hamas leaders occasionally still called for the annihilation of the state of Israel.[344]”
“In January 2024, Khaled Mashal, top Hamas leader until 2017 and now heading the Hamas diaspora office – in contradiction with Haniyeh’s proclamation from November 2023 – repeated his stance from 1 May 2017: a (preliminary) Palestinian state ‘on the 1967 borders’, that is ‘21 per cent of Palestine’, would be accepted by Hamas but not as the permanent ‘two-state solution’ which ‘The West’ since a long time envisions and promotes; ‘our Palestinian project’ remains ‘our right in Palestine from the sea to the river’, which Hamas will not give up, therefore Hamas will not recognise the legitimacy of ‘the usurping entity [Israel]’.[346]”)
The numbers of dead reported, which is what this whole article and thread is about, is reported by the Gaza Health Ministry. Casting doubt on the credibility of Hamas’ death counts is casting doubt on the credibility of the GHM, because that’s where their numbers come from.
The analogy was of 2 subjugated peoples who resisted their subjugators with violence, and are then condemned for it.
No, you said that Likud supports Hamas because (in your claim) Hamas is opposed to peace. In reality, Israel doesn’t care about the goals of the Gaza government, they care about whether international organizations will work with them. Hamas is not opposed to peace, they are opposed to setting up an open-air prison with slow starvation, no self-determination, apartheid status for its people, and frequent bombings… and calling it peace. They also know that Israel will never actually create a true state for the Palestinians willingly. If that’s ever going to happen, it’s going to have to be forced by one group or another (or more likely, sadly, it just won’t ever happen).
People do terrible things when pushed to the brink. Doesn’t excuse it, but it is the only outcome of pushing people there. Israel should have some introspection as to why they seem to create so many monsters.
I made an edit. Generally speaking, I agree with this statement. It doesn’t mean I agree with Hamas. That’s the main point I was making in my original comment.
You do realize that I’m the one that posted this not exactly pro-Israel article, right? I.e. I’m on your side on a certain amount of this, at least?
I don’t condemn Hamas for resisting their subjugators with violence. I condemn them for doing it in a corrupt, stupid, and counterproductive way, to the point that Likud wants to support them because them being around is so good for accomplishing Likud’s mission.
I made an edit with some backing for my statement that Hamas doesn’t support peace, through either violent or nonviolent means.
Peace, to me, means peace. Means 80-90% of people just want to do their farms and raise their children and be left alone. So your aim is to let them do that. If you need to fight to preserve that, because your back’s to the wall and you have enemies coming and killing you, taking your homes, then fine. I get that, it makes perfect sense to me. It’s necessary, it’s standing up for your country. Do your killing and fight your war with it fixed firmly in your mind when on some distant day your families and your community might be able to live and just do their business and all the guns and bombs can be buried. That’s the goal.
If you’re of the opinion that any peaceful business being done by anybody, any progress whether fake or real, all of that has to go on hold, for your allies and enemies alike, so that you inflame the killing and bring a real war, with the aim of finally reaching this distant day when all your enemies are dead, women and little children, the guilty and the innocent, then I don’t support you.
I get the idea of needing to resist the open-air prison that Israel calls “peace,” and the unconscionable crime that the West in general is committing by supporting Israel in its apartheid and its slaughter. I don’t know what the answer is to that. I wish I did, I really do… All I’m saying is, killing a bunch of people at a music festival isn’t it. I mean, how did it work out? Are things peaceful now?
I apologize; I am very sensitive on this topic, and I was being too aggressive.
Agreed. Violence becomes self-perpetuating at a certain point because a desire for peace takes a back seat to revenge, or peace only on one side’s strict terms. I’m not sure I’m ready to declare that dynamic present in Gaza, though; Hamas has never existed outside of Israel’s violence, so it’s impossible to say whether they would eschew true peace in favor of revenge or not, seeing as they’ve never been given the option.
All good 👍🏻
Yeah. That occurred to me as I was quoting my stuff… like at this point, what the fuck else are they going to say. And even then they’re hedging it a little bit, saying that they’d accept a cease-fire and the 1967 borders as long as it’s “not permanent” (not that Israel would agree to that anyway.)
So yeah maybe it’s unfair to say they wouldn’t want peace if there was realistic peace in front of them.
Hamas obviously isn’t perfect, but I try to be careful about criticizing any of the Palestinian resistance. As an American, it isn’t really my place.
“Isn’t perfect”?
If you ambush a music festival and kill hundreds of unarmed people, you’re a monster, and you’re going to hell. I’m comfortable saying that about Hamas, the IDF, American GIs during World War 2, Black Lives Matter supporters, Trump supporters. Anyone. It’s not a “sided” thing.
And of course the IDF and the current Israeli government are also currently committing unspeakable crimes in Gaza every day, starving children and the old, and bombing houses with little babies inside.
Anyone who could possibly disagree with either one of those statements, I’m not sure what I could say to you.
Well, it is a sided thing. One side is a colonial occupier employing genocidal means to maintain their dominance and on the other side are their victims, a practically stateless, displaced, and disenfranchised people with modest and fair demands to return home and have equal rights. It is the righteous, existential imperative of the latter to resist the former by any means necessary, including deadly terrorism. The case for Palestinian armed resistance and Operation Al-Aqsa Flood in particular is especially justified given Israel’s spectacular response to The Great March of Return in 2018 and 2019. The Israeli’s made it abundantly clear that non-violent resistance would only be answered with brutal punishment. Given what Palestinians are up against, I don’t think it’s really fair to expect any better from their armed resistance.
Nothing justifies the rape, murder, abductions of October 7 and I am disgusted that you are using the propaganda name Hamas chose for this string of war crimes. You do not fight violent oppression by being a violent oppressor yourself, which is what Hamas is.
Rapes may have occurred on that day as they do every other day of the year everywhere, and there has never been a fighting force that was completely innocent of it, but rape was not a part of the plan for Operation Al-Aqsa Flood. That allegation was a hoax designed to stoke the genocide against Palestinians, so it’s important to set that record straight.
That said, I don’t know how you can construe any of the Palestinian resistance as oppressors, except possibly to the extent that the PA has cooperated with the Israelis, but I digress. Violent, armed resistance to a colonial occupier is not oppression. It’s part of the struggle for liberation. No people ever got their freedom by asking nicely. At the very least they were able to leverage a credible threat of violence.
I’m honestly disgusted by the sheer indifference and malice expressed by this this half sentence alone.
There’s no indifference or malice in my words. Sorry if you feel that way.