This is the fascism trap. It’s tempting to fight back “in kind” once the rules start going out the window, and obviously by the letter of their decision it would be perfectly legal for him to just assassinate them as an official act and then nominate all new justices. But this is a trap. The further we all abandon the unspoken rules that keep things on the rails, the worse it gets. You have to fight back on the tilted table without yourself breaking any rules you can avoid breaking.
It’s a shitty situation but that is the strategy, as far as I understand it.
(And I know, or I assume, that you weren’t serious - but still it applies, even to more minor things like solving the problem by nominating 10 new justices or things like that.)
Isn’t this the same “taking the high road” strategy that has consistently put democrats at a disadvantage when dealing with a side that doesn’t care about the rules? I bring this up because I’m trying to get an understanding for this framework of thinking. In my heart, I know it’s probably the correct path, but I know it’s not the best one when dealing with the current political game.
So I am basing this on a book “How Democracies Die” that describes a series of case studies of nations that were threatened by a fascist movement, and those that succumbed, and those that defeated it, and what were the differences and tactics involved.
It’s fairly depressing, because a lot of times once it reaches a certain point there aren’t a lot of good options, but it is based on real outcomes and I think it’s instructive.
The Democrats’ “taking the high road” that they like to do is different. Assassinating the justices would be responding in kind. Growing the court would be a dangerous escalation. Making a crash priority out of impeaching them, like equal in priority with taking your fucking vacation for July 4th or passing a resolution honoring National Snails Day or whatever useless thing that are doing instead, would be a proper response (to me). Holding a hand-wringing press conference and then doing more or less nothing other than crossing fingers and hoping that this November doesn’t bring the end of the Republic - I.e. taking the high road, i.e. apparently what they’ve decided to do - seems like a pretty sure road to calamity. That, I’m 100% not advocating as the right course of action, although I can see how it might have sounded like I was.
If you’re afraid republicans are going to shoot democracy in the face, the answer is not to shoot democracy in the face before they can do it.
Everyone seems to think that it’s naïve to not do first what we expect the republicans to do once they get the power. But just because the Supreme Court made fascism legal, that doesn’t make it any less fascism to do it.
America’s dependence on unspoken rules and the assumption that people would abide by those rules is the weakest link in American democracy. It was just a matter of time until someone decided to exploit that…
Part of the point of the book was, every country is like that. You can’t just write some stuff in a book and expect it to do anything. People will follow them, or not, or they will as the current Court is doing find absurd reasons to argue why they are following the rules when they are not. At the end of the day it’s just a book.
Habits are strong, shared values are strong, codes and norms and laws and traditions are strong. But they’re not invulnerable. Fire up people’s loyalty and sense of justice and tell them that the leader is the law and that’s now the most important thing, and watch all the laws in the world crumble and tear like wet tissues. It doesn’t matter if it’s just in people’s heads or it’s written in stone on every street corner. It doesn’t make a difference.
Dont forget we got most of our rights by making plays that were “illegal”. Every single right you enjoy today is because people risked it all to change it. Biden should do it. Why? Because good people are accustomed to making good choices, and it is much easier for a good person to make one intentionally morally bad choice, than it is for a bad person to make morally good choices as the leader of our country.
And pay your power bill, and brush your teeth even though you already did yesterday, and try to prevent a horrifying fascist dictatorship with a credible chance at taking over the US from succeeding. I know I know it is oppressive to have to do these things.
I mean honestly I’m not even saying you should do that third one, just that you should stop implying that the pro killing protestors and political opponents guy is basically the same thing as an identifiably old person who isn’t as on board with a good progressive agenda as I would want him to be. But yes, whichever version you want, all three of those things are among the things I would recommend to get in line with if you want a safe and happy life going forward for the next few years.
I was remarking on the fact that the guy I was commenting under was wanting the blue tie guy to do the same thing the red tie guy wants to do. Advocating for fascism-left.
Why bother with impeachment? Biden should just exploit their most recent verdict and round them up as part of an emergency official act.
This is the fascism trap. It’s tempting to fight back “in kind” once the rules start going out the window, and obviously by the letter of their decision it would be perfectly legal for him to just assassinate them as an official act and then nominate all new justices. But this is a trap. The further we all abandon the unspoken rules that keep things on the rails, the worse it gets. You have to fight back on the tilted table without yourself breaking any rules you can avoid breaking.
It’s a shitty situation but that is the strategy, as far as I understand it.
(And I know, or I assume, that you weren’t serious - but still it applies, even to more minor things like solving the problem by nominating 10 new justices or things like that.)
Isn’t this the same “taking the high road” strategy that has consistently put democrats at a disadvantage when dealing with a side that doesn’t care about the rules? I bring this up because I’m trying to get an understanding for this framework of thinking. In my heart, I know it’s probably the correct path, but I know it’s not the best one when dealing with the current political game.
So I am basing this on a book “How Democracies Die” that describes a series of case studies of nations that were threatened by a fascist movement, and those that succumbed, and those that defeated it, and what were the differences and tactics involved.
It’s fairly depressing, because a lot of times once it reaches a certain point there aren’t a lot of good options, but it is based on real outcomes and I think it’s instructive.
The Democrats’ “taking the high road” that they like to do is different. Assassinating the justices would be responding in kind. Growing the court would be a dangerous escalation. Making a crash priority out of impeaching them, like equal in priority with taking your fucking vacation for July 4th or passing a resolution honoring National Snails Day or whatever useless thing that are doing instead, would be a proper response (to me). Holding a hand-wringing press conference and then doing more or less nothing other than crossing fingers and hoping that this November doesn’t bring the end of the Republic - I.e. taking the high road, i.e. apparently what they’ve decided to do - seems like a pretty sure road to calamity. That, I’m 100% not advocating as the right course of action, although I can see how it might have sounded like I was.
You gotta screw the whole system up. But not like how the fascists would. Going to filibuster the SCOTUS? Fill it with 99 judges.
The left: “we can’t break decorum and unwritten rules, or the right will do it even worse!”
The right: does it even worse anyway.
Liberals.
Leftists have been screaming at them for ages to fucking do something.
Liberals refuse to break rules that exist entirely within their own heads.
Please allow me to exemplify your comment. Ahem… Dear DNC, FUCKING DO SOMETHING!!!
The democrats are not leftists
If you’re afraid republicans are going to shoot democracy in the face, the answer is not to shoot democracy in the face before they can do it.
Everyone seems to think that it’s naïve to not do first what we expect the republicans to do once they get the power. But just because the Supreme Court made fascism legal, that doesn’t make it any less fascism to do it.
America’s dependence on unspoken rules and the assumption that people would abide by those rules is the weakest link in American democracy. It was just a matter of time until someone decided to exploit that…
Part of the point of the book was, every country is like that. You can’t just write some stuff in a book and expect it to do anything. People will follow them, or not, or they will as the current Court is doing find absurd reasons to argue why they are following the rules when they are not. At the end of the day it’s just a book.
Habits are strong, shared values are strong, codes and norms and laws and traditions are strong. But they’re not invulnerable. Fire up people’s loyalty and sense of justice and tell them that the leader is the law and that’s now the most important thing, and watch all the laws in the world crumble and tear like wet tissues. It doesn’t matter if it’s just in people’s heads or it’s written in stone on every street corner. It doesn’t make a difference.
No, this isn’t The Facism Trap, this is not falling for the paradox of tolerance.
It’s getting worse either way it seems, frankly it’s getting to the point that drastic action now could prevent worse harm in future.
🤡
Dont forget we got most of our rights by making plays that were “illegal”. Every single right you enjoy today is because people risked it all to change it. Biden should do it. Why? Because good people are accustomed to making good choices, and it is much easier for a good person to make one intentionally morally bad choice, than it is for a bad person to make morally good choices as the leader of our country.
They don’t have to be dead. He can just declare they’re no longer the justices. If they want to argue that’s not how it works, good.
Well put.
You’re right. I much prefer the guy with his boot on my neck to wear a blue tie.
And yet… you’re the one in this thread who’s stumping for the boot coming down on all our necks. But sure. Keep talking.
Guess I better get in line and shut up then.
And pay your power bill, and brush your teeth even though you already did yesterday, and try to prevent a horrifying fascist dictatorship with a credible chance at taking over the US from succeeding. I know I know it is oppressive to have to do these things.
I mean honestly I’m not even saying you should do that third one, just that you should stop implying that the pro killing protestors and political opponents guy is basically the same thing as an identifiably old person who isn’t as on board with a good progressive agenda as I would want him to be. But yes, whichever version you want, all three of those things are among the things I would recommend to get in line with if you want a safe and happy life going forward for the next few years.
I was remarking on the fact that the guy I was commenting under was wanting the blue tie guy to do the same thing the red tie guy wants to do. Advocating for fascism-left.