I‘ve not related to something this much in a long time. I‘ve been treated as a traitor for this so often all over my life. I can’t believe that someone actually has a theory about this that is not esoteric in some way.
I guess that explains why I’ve never “got” identity politics.
I understand this.
I think it’s important to recognize though that identity politics is exactly what is being waged against us and against other minorities all the time.
Having a majority identity and making decisions that cater to that identity as a society is considered “normal”. But if we push back and tell them what things are like for us, then it suddenly becomes political. Even worse, it becomes identity politics.
I’m not usually a realpolitik kind of guy, but it’s hard to see terms like that as anything else than the cudgel of the political power of the majority being wielded to prevent others from advocating for themselves.
I agree mostly. Since you use german words I‘ll do the same and throw „sozialdemokratie“ or social democracy at you. Thats the reason minorities are not yet fully destroyed in germany imo.
Thank you so much for sharing! This is really relatable and interesting theory and provoked lots of thoughts, I read another article from the same author about grand emotions and it too was striking, super inspiring stuff and I feel more validated after reading these.
I actually began to doubt if the therapy I went to was “off” as the focus on emotional skills was on “non-autistic emotions” and that underlined the fact that I wasn’t at all good with those, but there wasn’t much recognition and support for emotions such as those mentioned in the grand emotions article.
Thank you. I can relate to your experience as well. I felt like sharing the article might help the greater autistic community and individuals. :)
During school, I’ve been bullied to the point that I gave up on the concept of self-worth. I don’t know, if I would have been considered autistic without making that experience – nor do I know, if I’d be considered autistic now, as I’m not diagnosed – but I certainly feel like I identify with autistics now.
The loss of my self-worth meant I eventually started pursuing goals that were for the Greater Good. I had no reason to pursue ‘personal’ goals anymore.
And yeah, this made me consider, if this whole blob of what even is autism is maybe just this identity thing, too. That maybe some folks are truly born with differences to other people, but those just cause them to struggle identifying with everyone else. And then the lack of identity causes all the other characteristics that people typically associate with autism, but which could also be developed by anyone else who loses their sense of identity.
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Can relate and I‘m sorry you had to go through that.
Me three.
During school, I’ve been bullied to the point that I gave up on the concept of self-worth.
Interesting. In my case the reaction would seem almost the opposite - I became rather distasteful of socializing, pessimist, melancholic and hard on myself, but can’t describe it as a loss of self-worth as it was held together by pride of at least trying to be a good person, pride of never giving up and wish for correctness as priorities.
Yeah, I imagine the reaction to bullying is quite different, depending on whether you still have people standing up for you. Due to toxic masculinity and previous friendships having broken apart just before, I was practically left to my own devices and I was too young to be proud of anything without a third party recognizing it…
Well, yes, I had two (2, which is enough) friends outside of school and would sometimes be in contact with their friends, so I knew that my school is a swamp, not an important part of society, and their (classmates, teachers, whatever) opinions are not worth much. I would also read a lot of fiction.
Then for me there was the first stage of bullying where I came out victorious, so to say. Which allowed the pride part to form.
Then based on that pride I started evaluating my optimism of the humanity based on what I myself can see and not what others think, and became a bit pessimistic. That and a mental illness in the family and a relationship where I for whatever reason saw it a good thing to embed that girl as deep into my conscience as possible.
Then that relationship ended, which felt quite a lot like bullying itself the way it did, and then the second open stage happened (apparently I seemed weak), where I developed all those traits in response as means of self-defense (actually started during the first stage, but got complacent during the intermediate events).
This is a really really interesting article, I do have one thought though.
I’m not autistic, but my partner is, hence the fact I frequent autistic spaces to help myself understand her better. If someone asked me Who are you? I’d want to answer I am kind, social and insecure, but I wouldn’t because I’d presume whoever was asking implicitly asking about my social intersectionality, because from there, they can map where we fall on wider topics, so I’d answer "I’m a D&D player and general RPG designer, I’m bisexual and living in (trendy UK city).
From this, I’d assume that they would think, well he’s bisexual, so probably progressive and supportive of the LGBTQ+ community, into D&D so probably nerdy and social, and lives in a city which is welcoming and like-minded, so probably supported in his beliefs.
I’d hope they’d unpack my values from my social intersections, but they’d also make assumptions based on if they wanted to like me or not. Someone who would answer “football fan, rocket league player and car enthusiast” may map their network from rocket league, to gaming to D&D and find that we both loved Skyrim a decade ago, leading to a good conversation about that, where we’d then try to imply our values though our conversation. They may hear bisexual and have issues with the LGBTQ+ community and try to seperate their social map from mine, and avoid making links to me, and we wouldn’t have any conversation because it’s already clear that we could argue over something like pronouns easily by them knowing themselves and my sexuality meaning I’m likely to champion other parts of my community.
However if I’d answered kind, social and insecure, you can’t unpack that the other way. You’d never know where to take that conversation to a point that resonated with both of us.
I know this isn’t a perfect take, as to my understanding, if I told autistic people my social intersections, they’d be less likely to start to automatically make assumptions to unpack my identity from it, but in a neurotypical dominated world, I’d just default to assuming whoever I’m talking to will.
I know the article ends with Non-autistic people are likely to reject this theory as it disempowers their privilege as the superior “default” neurotype and I guess I’m doing exactly that, but I really don’t believe that my neurotype is superior, but by being more prevalent, I will with strangers in a way that’s most accomodating for people without autism.
by being more prevalent, I will with strangers in a way that’s most accomodating for people without autism.
That’s exactly what privilege is, if you boil it down.
Oh yeah I know I’m in the privileged position, and that’s exactly why it’s important to me to read articles like this and communicate with autistic people. But I also feel like it’s the wrong decision to approach strangers in a way that’s harder for them if they’re neurotypical but easier if they’re autistic.
As soon as I know somebody is not in their comfort zone while communicating with me, either from a neurodivergency or anxiety or anything really, I’m happy to change my communication style to be better, but I can’t make presumptions about people before I’ve learnt that, so I need to talk to them like they’re neurotypical.
To be clear, I don’t think you did anything wrong. I was just remarking on the mechanics of privilege.
I didn’t get the sense the author was advocating that you present yourself differently to cater to autistic people, although I read it kinda fast so maybe I glossed over that. Just an observation of the different patterns.
I am self-suspected (and others-suspected) autistic and I would respond “I am an independent and curious person and I love animals and nature”.
The reason you would change your answer to include social intersections was only really clear to me once you explained what others would be expected to infer from your revised answer. But it does make logical sense to interact in a way that provides the most information to the people you want to impart this information to. In answering in the ‘autistic’ way, one could also be broadcasting themselves in such a way that appeals to or resonates with other autistics and neurodivergents, which isn’t necessarily a con for us either, as I find NDs to be ‘safe/comfort/good vibe’ people to me at a much higher rate than neurotypicals. But that is not the conscious goal in my answer, my goal is to just answer the question accurately to how I see myself. Hope that all makes sense!
I‘m absolutely clueless what it is you‘re trying to say but I‘ll try harder to understand:
„Harder for them if they’re neurotypical“
Example: So are you saying a person is to assume someones gender because that is what cis people usually do? Instead of being assertive and listening/asking for clarification.
Because thats how it reads to me.
Being in a privileged position means you have to cater to the minorities since they are the ones nobody caters to. At least if it is fairness you‘re after.
So yes, catering to autistic identity is something that can be asked of you if you‘re in a privileged position.
I’m sorry if I’m not being very clear, I’m never the best at presenting my points clearly.
I do try to cater do all neurodivergent people, using your example of assuming gender, it’s a very small fix in language to get that right, and day by day, I’d say I do unfortunately assume the gender of strangers more than I wish I did, and it’s only when someone presents themselves in a way that gives the slightest inkling that they may be transgender or genderqueer that I actually catch myself and ask them their preferred pronouns. If someone ever corrects me when I’ve got it wrong based on assumption, I’m going to try to hard to get it right from then on of course. I sort of approach neurodiversity similarly, and I’m trying to change that mindset but it does come slowly.
I don’t want autistic people to mask and act neurotypical infront of me or anyone else, but unless they let me know how they need to be communicated with, I can’t implicitly get it right, and plenty of neurodiverse people either don’t know how they need to be communicated with, don’t want to be treated differently or would rather not let strangers know they’re neurodiverse.
If someone needs to be communicated with in a different way, they need to let me know, because any other approach may do more harm than good. Of course I’m always trying to communicate in a way that allows people to communicate back to me, but for anything specific, you need to let me know.
I’m not sure if this analogy will land but in a restaurant, it’s great for the restaurant to cater to many dietary requirements but if you have allergies, you really should let them know.
Apologies if anything I’ve said here is unclear (it probably is), I’m not great at expressing complicated thoughts.
No, not unclear. At least not anymore. I think your elaboration helped a lot. Thank you very much.
I agree. This opens up another question though: how do we make it so NDs (and especially autistic people) learn to communicate their needs and dont get retraumatized all the time into communicating nothing at all? More a general question, you don’t need to answer if that is not something you have an idea for.
I think the issue here is that autistic people are on the way of lgbtq people some 50 yrs back. Nobody knows a lot, some are nice and try to help, others are denying, even some autistics.
Our much bigger knowledge should help but I‘m afraid it does not, at least not enough.
I’m unpacking a lot of stuff in the past 3 years, and this article struck me hard.
I remember thinking of myself as having to wear masks, without knowing what masking is, and only recently I started to see when that is automatic.
I like to think ‘weird’ and when people accept it I would also say stuff like I’m “infinitely curious, detail oriented, living in a vast network of interconnected concepts” or “I work in IT, am dad” if not.
And this article has examples of Me. Crying when watching a documentary about the infinity of space, learning of world-changing discoveries. Also being deadpan serious when answering an aghast, rethorical “How could someone do this?” with “Just like that.”
Thanks for trying to understand diversity. Not a lot of people do.
If someone asked me Who are you? I’d want to answer […] but I wouldn’t because I’d presume whoever was asking implicitly asking about my social intersectionality, because from there, they can map […], so I’d answer “[…]”. From this, […] I’d hope they’d unpack my values from my social intersections
O. M. G.
I am blown away by this. In the way that the first moments of a good film says so much more than what’s on screen, this “intro of a person” is such a beautifully crafted, rich description that I’m left thinking you’ve spent a long time polishing that to such perfection.
Me? I’m likely to simply give my name and profession, or possibly my reason for being at whatever gathering we meet at.
This is to say: is it “normal” for (“normal”) people to be able to give such eloquent descriptions? Because I feel like a right dunce in comparison.
For reference, I am not diagnosed with autism, but am certainly struggling with something in this crazy world (and can relate to what I’ve read about alexithymia ).
Oh, yes. I have such chains of thought sometimes.
There really aren’t many autistic people who would argue, “But I feel just like everyone else. I’m normal!”
oh.my.god!! lmaooo 🤣 Also, relevant meme.
Then, in August of 2017, shortly after the white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, I found myself in a heated disagreement with someone of similar political views but who was definitely not autistic. I felt like they were parroting party politics without seeing how they were contributing to racism. They thought that I was “causing division” by not following party lines.
This reminds me of how the author of A Field Guide to Earthlings argues that allistics create knowledge through social construction. Basically, truth is whatever everyone agrees is truth.
[Dis]ability
Yessss! Abilty
This is being published as a theory and not as a fact. Autistic people are invited to share their thoughts and engage with this theory, even if to disprove it.
I feel that statement. After being attacked for having a different perspective on matters my entire life, sharing these viewpoints comes with the fear of being attacked as a malicious actor or moral failings rather than being sincere about a possible perspective that is up for respectable discussion. Thus, we have to preface it with a disclaimer to have a voice while helping to avoid “retaliation” for whatever value or norm we unknowingly violated.
It’s also worth noting that many, many autistic people just answered, “I’m who I am,” “I’m me,” or “I don’t know who I am.”
I have theories about why many autistic people struggle to put words to who they are. Some of that could be that they do not experience identity the same way that the world describes identity, and so they struggle to understand themselves within the neurotypical context. Others may have been shamed and over-therapized and gaslighted to the extent that they have never had permission to explore their passions and truly meet their authentic selves.
😢
Many autistics who loved their identity communities– professional, religious, racial, LGBTQ+, etc.–were shunned from them for not being a “team player” or for “causing division.”
Ugh, the story of my life! So, then the issue becomes trying to learn what sincere comments I can or cannot make . What happens, depending on the situation, is that I will either restrain myself too much and avoid making helpful contributions for fear of upsetting someone, or lose a lot of caution and really upset people to the point that they see and treat me as someone that needs punishment.
Autistic people may air their grievances with problems within an identity to which they belong, setting the stage for the other person to confirm if they share the same values. For example, a Christian autistic may express their discontent at the church’s focus on prosperity and financial “blessings” as being a reflection of greed or of contributing to morality being associated with financial privilege.
This person gets it!! We’re pointing out contradictions and establishing that we are not okay with that hypocrisy.
They monitor and adjust their own behavior– publicly– and often ask others to hold them accountable.
Yes!! Please, just tell me directly what I did that upset you. I have a lot of trouble with passive aggressive behaviors. I will either think you’re in a bad mood and just help you feel better, or I will think you’re a manipulative jerk. Neither of these will help me figure out and reduce what upset you.
What a great article. I found it validating, educational, and helpful with my own self-awareness. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for sharing this!
I’ve never read this before, but I have seen unsourced quotes and talked to people that present it as established fact.
It’s been a good experience to read the original.
You‘re very welcome. I‘m always trying to share stuff if I find it useful in case someone else does as well. :)
Wow… I think I might be autistic…
A huge chunk of us said the exact same thing before getting evaluated (or self dxing if official dx is blocked for them).
Do you want to elaborate?
Well, the thing asked in the experiment… I would never answer with my personal info (name, age, where I live, what I do), I consider that irrelevant. I would say exactly what an autistic person would say, just elaborate what I like and what makes me happy… or sad.
Plus, I am kinda weird…I don’t feel like I fit in anywhere. I’ve tried, but some things from some social groups are completely unacceptable for me. I’m consudered rude and durect, even though what I say is completely true. I have friends (not a lot though… used to have more) and they know me and know how I am and we get along just fine. I am an outgoing person, but people usually react in 2 extremes with me - they either love me or don’t like me at all… which is fine, I don’t take it to heart or anythig. Also, some of my friends have described me as cold, which can’t be further from the truth, I feel so so much, I just have a hard time explaining what I feel, cuz most of the time the emotions are so overwhelming or so mixed that I just don’t know how to react, so I just… freeze… I guess that seems like I don’t feel anything. Other times, I deliberately shield myself from feeling anything about a certain bad story, cuz I know ho much it might hurt, so I just throw dismissing comments at the story - “oh well, that’s life I guess”, stuff like that. It’s a coping mechanism, I know, but if I do otherwise, I might feel depressed for days. I can also drift away with thoughts quite often and sometimes, you litelarly have to snap at me to get me back. I’m good at what I do, but I can only do 1 thing at a time. I have been training myself to pay attention at multiple things at the same time, but I haven’t gotten past 2. I trained myself mostly because of my kid, when I have to pay and watch him at the store, or make converstation with a parrent at the playground, but watch him at the same time. Still 2 is very hard, it takes a lot of energy from me, I feel so exhausted afterwards.
Sounds like you should start with some evaluation. Either with a mental health specialist (psychotherpist or psychiatrist) or on your own first if that is easier.
It can be multiple different things, autism being one of them. Important is to not jump to conclusions and write down your findings, maybe talk to people you trust who are reflected (important, others might deter you).
Finding out helps shape your life into a non threatening thing. I speak from experience here. I used to have regular panic attacks, constant sweaty hands and stomach ache and thought this was normal.
I can’t point out enough how important it is to find out the reason for your bad experiences and stressful situations.
You are absolutely right! I have a psychiatrist, but maybe I should see a psychologist as well 🤔? I’m also on antidepressants, perscribed by the psychiatrist. They’re not really strong, but still, I needed them. There was a time when I had the worst insomnia, staying awake for days at a time, then comatosing for 12, 14 hours.
Anyhow, I will mist definitely talk with someone who might diagnose (partially at least) why I am like I am.
Thank you! ☺️
Sounds like you know the way. Good luck! :) feel free to update.
Omg this! I have felt this way for a long time, but never really had the words.
Same here! This feels like a milestone if it is confirmed.
Thanks for sharing this!
I’m thinking this must be one of the defining characteristics that is shared by most ND people. It’s not new to me and my self-experience but finally there i have someone who put it in clear words, and it explains a lot about ND social functioning.
Also read that “Grand Emotions” article which is being linked to in the article, which has the underlying reason (“truth” and such as primary(!) emotions that’s an interesting take).
I can use this well for explaining what it means, “a fundamental difference not a disability in understanding”.Edit … And also there’s some light on my confusion with the meaning of the word community. For me it would mean much more than “grouping of people with similar interest” but more like “communal”. Maybe i shouldn’t call the thing i want to find/co-op a “neurodiverse community” at all.
Thats very valuable insight imo. The pathologizing of autistic people is rough in my perception as well.
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Thats interesting! I have never heard of DEI before but google says it’s supposed to be an improvement (which it probably isnt?).
What’s the idea behind you identifying yourself? I assume adhere to some arbitrary models of pathology?
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Make sense. Thanks for elaborating.
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Skimming, I’d think autistic communities answer differently because the places aren’t like others first, then because the members aren’t like others. Does the author say what autistic communities they polled?
