Mitch McConell says the quiet part out loud.
Exact full quote from CNN:
āPeople think, increasingly it appears, that we shouldnāt be doing this. Well, let me start by saying we havenāt lost a single American in this war,ā McConnell said. āMost of the money that we spend related to Ukraine is actually spent in the US, replenishing weapons, more modern weapons. So itās actually employing people here and improving our own military for what may lie ahead.ā
cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/4085063
Thatās what a win win looks like. No need to be quiet around it. Russia illegally invaded Ukraine. Now everyone gets to replenish and modernize their weapons, test them in real conditions while making sure Russia gets enough of a bloody nose to not fucking try this shit ever again.
Russia did the āfuck around and find out thingā. It was their choice and the only way they can win is by tankies convincing every other country that just saw rape, murder, pillaging and terrorism getting used on another country in Europe by a rabid bear that somehow Russia was justified and should be allowed a free pass. But itās not working. The rabid bear is rabid, but thereās ways to deal with that.
Because now they makes sure that every country around them is joining the anti rabid bear alliance.
The way the OP framed the article is to create the idea that somehow Russia is good because US military is bad. But thatās a fallacy. The US military is perfectly capable of doing bad shit on behalf of the US, but that does not mean everyone else is good. Sometimes clobbering Nazis is win win and Russia should have know that. Their feeble at reframing may work on Fox brainwashed Republicans who are reduced to āPutins kills gays and is strong so Putin is goodā, but it turns out Putin is a cuck taking it into the ass by his own chef.
Yep, but could you please edit out the ācuck taking it in the assā business? āHumiliatedā works and doesnāt make you sound like a āhomophobic trumptardā. Weāre managing to have a civilized discussion here and I donāt want to see this devolve more into reddit.
Even worse than that, itās a misrepresentation of the cuck/bull relationship dynamic!
Thank you for pointing that out.
Itās funny because inane corrections of a good post is exactly what happens on Reddit
Itās not inane, maybe Iām a cuck who likes to take it in the ass. Now what? How are you supposed to offend anyone with that? In what way is putin like me?
PS: Iām not trying to be hostile, btw, I just think itās filthy language that we absorb and then becomes mainstream and all of a sudden weāre like ācuck this, that cuck thatā and we already have enough of that around. :/
PPS: back again. Iām not trying to stop anyone swearing or to police speech, if you wanna say it, whatever. Swearing is a healthy practice that helps vent and we have plenty of shit, dick, fuck and assholes to go around, I just donāt see how that is a good offense, does it help you vent to see putin be fucked in the ass? Maybe he likes it, lol (ew), it just gives me 4chan PTSD :)
āmaybe im a cuck ā¦now what?ā touchĆ©! šš¤£
Well you are not supposed to feel insulted. Context matters. Why would you be insulted, you enjoy cuckolding, good on you, love and let love. No issues with that, we all have our fetishes and one manās insult is anotherās climax - imagine you have a degradation fetish, man /r/the_donald would be so hot. The insult wasnāt aimed at you. You didnāt feel offended. So working as intended.
Thatās the point - itās insulting for tankies because they love strong macho Putin image whose definitely not a bottom. never, totally ever, ok, only a bit if you ask nicely with a coup.
What is annoying on the internet is that everyone thinks itās about them and every statement has to be minimally offensive to everyone because of this, main character syndrome. Itās not nonsensical, itās actually giving the right wing itās power.
So no, I think I wonāt be doing that. Iāll continue dishing out highly targeted insults and everyone else can learn that they are not meant to be offended because - as you say, thereās nothing offensive about it unless you are a right wing schmuck with a masculinity complex.
Look, itās just trashy 4chan+r/the_Donald talk, but ok, use it to your heartās content if it means that much to you and holds such expressive value to you, weāre all adults here and Iāll just stop reading :) have a nice day.
I agree with you, it undermines his position and makes him look childish, but you tried.
Ones gotta insult tankies in the way they understand. Doesnāt make me homophobic. Cuckolding is a specific fetish that tankies are fascinated with, itās not a blanket judgement about anyone gay.
Being homophobic is ok as long as itās a bit to own le tankies
Wtf where did you pull that from? Tankies like to cuck? Hahahaha.
You have some good takes, so I canāt block you, but I have no idea where this is coming from, lolRule of projection. Read up on Roger Stoneās stones activities. Itās deep man.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fuckthealtright/comments/6jvg6n/roger_stone_is_literally_a_cuck_found_his_swinger/
https://medium.com/queertheory/the-right-faces-its-cuckholding-sex-fantasies-1351ed88a8ae
Maybe go back
Maybe fuck yourself or block me if you feel offended by something thatās not an insult to a reasonable person.
U mad bro?
deleted by creator
What exactly is a tankie? I wanted to upvote this post when I saw its content, but I found the tag from the OP about the āquiet partā to be off-putting as though this quote from McConnell is a negative thing. I donāt like or think McConnell is a good person, but to me this quote reads as a way to sell continued support for Ukraine to the crazier parts of our government. Like a āoh, you donāt want to spend money on Ukraine because itās the right thing to do? Well here, how about because itās making money for Americans.ā Sure, maybe not the reason I support funding and arming Ukraine, but if it convinces people who arenāt already in support, then Iām for it. If anything, it seems shrewd.
Iāve seen a lot of posts/comments on Lemmy about tankies recently and Iām confused about what that means. Havenāt quite been able to determine from context since the context seems different depending on the post. Sorry if itās a dumb question.
A subsection of people who are so far right they ended up on the left again, strongly aroused by military (tanks) symbols, manliness and strength while simultaneously being convinced that Russia is the good guys and therefore whatever they do must be good because US is bad.
Thereās a few varieties here. Roger Waters and Noam Chomsky for example who basically are the US is bad so anything is the opposite of what US says (down to denying russian genocide in syria because, well, they are against the US).
Thereās the cosplay section of milbloggers and western cosplay russian twitter specialists who usually are Canadian or German or Alabama white males in their basement cosplaying to be in Ukraine fighting for Russia
And of course plenty of russian males who actually buy the narratives.
Most of them have one thing in common - they just canāt handle reality and therefore escape into increasingly insane contortionā¦ basically Republicans meet Covid again.
Thanks! Appreciate the in depth response
This is hilarious to read lol. Stop using words you donāt know the meaning of.
Youāre right that this war is partially about the US attempting to test and modernize weapons, but the US spending more money on itās already bloated military isnāt a āwinā for anybody except for neo-cons.
You should ask Ukrainians about their opinion on that. They love sending your tankie friends some good old American Himars
I think this Wikipedia quote is more informational
Basically it means someone who supports Russia - usually Communists (which is fine) who - for some reason think Russia is still communist (which is dumb)
Literally no communist thinks Russia is still communist
There seems to be a startling overlap on lemmy between Communists and Russia supporters. Canāt say Iāve ever seen a comment either from hexbear or lemmy grad in favor of Ukraine over Russia.
If itās not because they think Russia is on the side of communism, then what the hell is going on in their heads?
Support as in they enjoy the prospect of Russia winning? That they like Putin and want him to conquer Ukraine?
They mostly consider this war to be a proxy war between Russia and United States + its wards in the EU who wish to needlessly prolong the war at the cost of Ukranian lives in order to deplete the Russian economy and military. Within this group, you can further break them down into: those who disagree with the invasion and those who believe it is justified.
For the latter, they would point to the secession crisis in the Donbass after the Maidan and subsequent intentional blockading of fresh water to Crimea as justification for intervention, with the prospects of Ukraine joining NATO being the trigger.
For the group that disavows the invasion, you need to understand that it is difficult for communists to cheerleader their own state pumping weapons into a country whose government heralds bold-faced Nazis as righteous warriors of freedom. This does not necessarily mean they believe that Putin is genuinely concerned about Nazis since the Wagner PMC itself has a notorious far right and neo-Nazi presence.
Simply not supporting the Ukrainian state nor NATO does not mean supporting Russia. On the other hand, those who do support Russia arenāt always necessarily communists, but will flock to spaces that have that overlap in interests.
I mean, yes - as a matter of fact. Just look in this thread at the numerous comments from those two instances of users saying that Ukraine should have just surrendered, and that itās their fault for not agreeing to Putinās āpeaceā proposal.
Youāre definitely not going to hear me argue in favor of NATOās actions, but none of that (with the exception of Ukraine joining NATO) excuses an invasion of Ukraine - and regarding Ukraine joining NATO - theyāre a sovereign state, itās not Russias right to invade their neighbors because they donāt like Ukraines international policy. If the US decided to invade Mexico because they were thinking about signing a mutual defense agreement with China, you can bet your ass Iād be out in the street protesting the war.
And if weāre going to say that a country deserves to be ravaged because a small portion of their population espouses white supremacist policies, then I guess the U.S., Italy, Germany, Russia itself, and a whole shitload others should start getting shelled as well. Unfortunately, for very complex reasons, a huge chunk of the world has a neonazi problem right now, using it as an excuse for an invasion is absolute bull shit.
Except that it does. Russia invaded Ukraine - and so far they havenāt given a single signal that theyād be willing to any peace agreement that leaves Ukraine with itās original borders. Ultimately if Ukraine loses, itāll mean that it will be annexed. It would be a very different situation if Russia was offering a real peace (one that doesnāt involve Ukraine giving up itās own territory) and Ukraine was being obstinate, but there is no realistic pacifist position to be taken here
Iām not debating. The original conversation was that you said communists supported Russia because they think itās communist, and I clarified that they really donāt.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
Iām open-source, check me out at GitHub.
This is not true. Iāve talked with people in person at socialist organizations that were claiming that putin was secretly Marxist at the beginning of the invasion. There def are campists who will double down on nonsense.
What organization?
A local marxist-leninist org I know through activist circles. They arenāt big or influential and I wouldnāt take them to be representative of most self identified socialist political orgs in America. Theyāre fringe.
Anti Rabid Bear Alliance. Iād like to petition to change NATO to ARBA.
The alternate reality you live in sounds fascinating.
Itās not a win win for the Ukrainians, who are losing lives. The article shows whatās been said all along: the US doesnāt gaf about Ukraine or itās people. The US is only involved to make money and to prop up the USās dying empire.
Without the US more ukrainians would die and Russia would have overrun them by now and subjugated them into the shitshow they call motherland.
So itās a win win.
Ask Ukrainians which version they prefer - US involvement or not. Oh wait, itās pretty clear they prefer the kill rabid bear with Himars version.
The only version theyād like even more is killing bear with ATACMS and F16.
So fuck off tankie.
Yeah thereās just one little problem here fam: the US backed a coup there and installed pro-war neo-nazis in power, there was no question about it left to the Ukrainians.
In the liberal imagination, history started this morning, every morning, unfortunately. Historical context is practically irrelevant to them once theyāve been told which side to pick.
Iām fairly sure that if you asked Ukrainians, thereād be a clear victory for āplease can everyone stop aiming RPGs at my grandmaās house and my sonās school?ā although Iād expect regional split in the answers. The only people who root for war like this are (if thereās a difference between them) psychopaths, liberals who are far from the frontlines, and fascists.
Except for the nearly a million Euromaidan protesters and half the country in support of protest, with the support rising after the supposed ācoupā? The very protest that set the ācoupā in motion because Russia used the corrupt pro-russia prime minister to strike down the pro-eu deal. Seems to me like Ukrainians wanted this ācoupā.
Well in that case you should support US sending weapons even more, just fascists fighting fascists, right?
At this point I support the US sending the F-16s tomorrow, yesterday, whenever they want really, itās not like anything short of nukes or direct NATO involvement has any chance of flipping the current situation around.
Letās see those toy planes shot down by Russiaās anti-air and extremely dug-in defenses, Iām sure itāll do very well for morale in the Ukrainian army and support back at home in the US!
deleted by creator
Ok, and? Are they doing something wrong? Arenāt we supposed to scold someone when theyāre doing bads things, and praise them for doing good things, not just shit on them no matter what?
US involvement is unambiguously a good thing morally and for the people of Ukraine. Any other take would lunacy. So why are you taking time to shit on the US and not the ethnonationalist dictatorship invading a democratic neighbor of theirs? Are your priorities that messed up? America bad? Certainly, but it hurts YOU to have a such narrow minded view geopolitics. The US isnāt always the bad guy.
The US has spent 30+ years shit stirring, dismantling Ukraine, running coups, and undermining Ukraineās relationships with itās closest neighbours. Now itās provoked a war and all gullible liberals can say is the same thing they said about the US contemporaneously with all its other wars.
The article in the OP demonstrates exactly what I and others like me have been saying from the start: the US is not involved to be the good guy, it has no moral high ground; it is only involved to make money, and no number of Ukrainian lives is too great a price to pay for US prosperity. The US is involved to steal as much Ukrainian wealth as possible.
Itās not just the āprofitā from selling the weapons (which Ukraine will pay for, not the US, so thereās no benevolence in it but self-interest). Every aid package is another tranche of the same kind of loans that the US has used to loot and privatise the countryās assets for decades. The same thing the US does everywhere. The only difference now is the novelty of trying to physically destroy Russiaās military at the same time.
Itās a bit rich to say that Iām the one with a narrow minded view of geopolitics when youāve reduced a 30+ year conflict to itās surface details. Events like this cannot be separated from the political economy or their historical context. Itās clear that liberals still havenāt learned to correct a flaw in their framework that was identified 150 years ago (source otherwise only indirectly relevant):
Some people have dug beneath the appearance of things, whereas others accept them in their inverted form.
Without aid Ukraine would lose more lives.
Do you honestly believe that? You honestly think that US aid has saved lives in Ukraine? Some surely has but the weapons? Ig itās not your family and friends in the cross hairs, your fields poisoned with depleted uranium, or your kidsā cross country tracks littered with cluster munitions. You really think the country responsible for embargoes of medical supplies to Palestine, Yemen, and Cuba, to name a few, is sending aid to save lives?
Ukraine is another Kurdistan to the US. The only question is whether it will take the Ukrainians as long as it took the Kurds to learn that the US is nobodyās friend.
Russia has been using cluster munitions the entire war, and their bomblets have a 40% failure rate. US-made ones have a >3% failure rate. Point your criticism where it belongs
Yes, the US is making money helping Ukraine uphold international law and russia is losing money committing war crimes to the last Ukrainian.
If Russiaās aims are āimperialistsicā, is it losing money?
Yes, you spend blood and treasure to conquer land and then brag about it in history books.
You impose your rule on that land and your peasants rejoice at your statesmanship and feel blessed to join such a great nation, or elseā¦
My point is that nobody doing that would be doing it for free. This applies the apologia for all other empires to Russia. I.e. that empire builders do it sometimes by accident but always for benevolent reasons. Thatās incorrect. Empires are built by extracting wealth and to extract wealth.
I think you agree with this as Iām reading your second paragraph as sarcasm. If you do agree, then itās not possible to conclude that Russia will lose money. It may do, if it loses, although even that is questionable. If it wins, it will gain wealth. Or itās capitalists will do so. Thereās a contradiction between your two paragraphs.
If Russiaās motivations are imperialistic (I havenāt seen evidence for that, myself, but it depends on oneās definition of imperialism), there would be no point if it cost more money to achieve than would be recouped after. Until itās over, itās not possible to say that itās already lost money. Itās costly, but thatās different, and doesnāt answer, āCostly for whom?ā
(Please donāt misunderstand me ā Iām not saying that Russia will not exploit whatever parts of Ukraine it keeps hold of. Itās capitalist. Of course it will. Iām suggesting that this war doesnāt amount to a land grab simpliciter.)
One counter to this is that the US is spending money to ensure that Russia does lose money. Time will tell whether Iām right or wrong but I think this drastically overestimates the strength of the US. It doesnāt have an industrial base (except in vassal and puppet states). So it cannot match Russiaās military output.
And the industries the US does possess are governed by the logic of finance capital not industrial capital. Money spent does not indicate how much has been bought. $10bn spent on weapons, for instance, doesnāt mean you get $10bn worth of weapons by the time you factor in all the sales teams, admin, embezzlement, and middle managers, etc.
The US seems incapable of providing Ukraine with the arms that the Ukrainian military is asking for. Itās publications have started to admit this more and more. Due to the above-mentioned logics, the US doesnāt have the intellectual-ideological or industrial capacity to ramp up manufacturing. The US certainly has people bright enough to figure it out but theyāre inconsequential in the face of a military-industrial complex designed to make as much money as possible rather than to āwinā wars.
Oh look, the āNATO is anything I donāt likeā Russian apologist tankie guy is back at pulling out fake shit out of their ass.
The US is the second largest manufacturer on the planet, and insources its military production.
Ukraine is complaining that we canāt send them Soviet era military structure compatible weaponry. The US had largely phased out ādig a trench and use artillery to make a breakthroughā back in the late 80s, because we could attain air superiority against Soviet tech.
I see youāre coming at me with another semantic argument. This one based on the notion that by ādoesnāt have an industrial baseā I can only mean ādoesnāt have any industrial baseā. Thatās a rather strange reading as it assumes I have zero grasp of logic. The existence of the tiniest fragment of industry would render my argument incorrect. Itās acting in bad faith to assume I meant that.
Which leaves the search for an alternative interpretation. Such as the US doesnāt have a sufficient industrial base to achieve its goals militarily in the Ukraine. The figures are hard to come by as there are lots of definitional issues. Still, trade publications and Congress are worried.
US manufacturing can be as large as it likes but if it canāt join up itās thinking and produce what fighters on the front line need, it doesnāt count for much. Itās DIB is not set up for wars against industrialised countries that are determined to fight back. It doesnāt matter what weapons and compatible ammunition the US does produce, either, if it isnāt working to supply them to the people doing the fighting and isnāt willing to use them itself for (rightly) being at least a little bit reluctant to start a nuclear third world war.
Iām a little skeptical of the extent of the claims about the weaknesses of the DIB and more so of the framing of the solution. The details are coming from people who want to increase the military budget (without otherwise wanting to change the underlying political economic system). Still, there does seem to be some movement to use the Ukraine war to justify costly improvements to the US DIB.
Will the changes come? And will they come in time to defeat Russia in Ukraine within a reasonable time frame? The plan will struggle against the existing contradictions unless thereās a change in logic, which doesnāt seem to be on the cards. So itās unlikely to be a complete success even if some fixes are implemented.
Itās irrelevant whether you accept what Iām saying. Iām only summarising what the US military is saying. This is public information. If youāre interested, search for āus defense industrial baseā. What Iāve explained is such a hot topic, you donāt even need to add e.g. āproblemsā to the search terms for articles about the problems to be returned.
Your position literally is the NATO is all the imperial capitalists in the world, and somehow Russia is not involved in either of those definitions and deserves to be apologized for. Itās internally inconsistent and is shill behavior.
You have an agenda, and itās pro imperialist, as long as the imperialist is not the US. Congrats; If you were in the US, youāre dumb enough that youād be shilling for Trump because āHeās gonna drain the swamp!ā
Youāre only summarizing what the US Military Industrial Complex is saying, which isnāt the US Military. National Defense Industrial Association != US Military, again going back to the āNATO is whatever I define it asā that you keep insisting.
Mark Milley is the mouthpiece of the US Military as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and heās not mincing words: Russia will lose militarily in Ukraine. It will take time and blood, but the US is responsible for 34% of the worldās military industrial output and claiming
Is not reality. Weāve only faced off once, and the Battle of Khasham did not go well for the āindustrialized country determined to fight backā
Eh, weāre not in there for a couple reasons and they all make sense. It would preclude NATO from ever entering because of the non-aggression portion of the agreement, and it would put Russia in a corner where they have to either admit defeat (which putin wonāt do) or go nuclear which is bad for everyone but especially bad for Ukraine.
The article in the OP is explicitly talking about US involvement. The US and NATO are āin thereā. If NATO isnāt in Ukraine, it was hardly ever anywhere.
Arguing that NATO isnāt involved seems to be either disingenuous or naive. It accepts NATOās PR at face value and in opposition to the practical reality. NATO/the US tends not announce itās clandestine work in the tabloids or the broadsheets, especially as it happens but it does admit it sometimes, if you know what youāre looking for. In the case of Ukraine, itās not even hidden. Theyāve been bragging about how much weaponry theyāve been sending and how much theyāve been involved in training and instructing Ukrainians how to fight.
Was the US involved when it trained and funded Saddam, Bin Laden, or the Contras? Of course it was. Ukraine is another example of how the US gets involved without āgetting itās hands dirtyā; although Iāve yet to meet anyone IRL who doesnāt think the US has the bloodiest, grimiest hands of all. The only question is whether people think itās a good thing or a bad thing. The fact of it is not open to dispute.
Iāll struggle to accept any argument that splits hairs over what counts as involvement, Iām afraid. It boils down to semantics without addressing the crux of the issue.
Iām also struggling to see why more visible NATO/US involvement would require Russia to admit defeat until itās been defeated. Unless youāre implying that NATO would wipe the floor with Russia. That doesnāt seem right for two reasons:
3rd party involvement and direct engagement are two very different things. The non-aggression agreement, the one that protects and constrains nato members, only cares about engagement, training and arms are a-ok. What member states agreed to is concrete and well defined, not whatever amorphous definition youāre going by here.
The āloose definitionā redtea came up with is bonkers.
The nutbagās definition of NATO includes Russia.